AARHE 1939 Edition

[Adlertag]

@Imperious:

Look at Norway. It always falls in every game ever played…now we model the ‘other’ difficulties in such an attempt. Even the Germans were smart and actually landed airborne troops because it was easier to attack Norway that way. The allies can still invade but if the Germans stick more than a few troops it will hold… just like in real life. The same thing goes for the Balkans which Hitler thought the Brits would invade throughout the war but didn’t … realizing the difficulties in such an operation.

I like this. Remember the Gallipoli-landings during WW I, when UK tried to amphibious assault the mountain range around Bosporus-Strait in Turkey. The brits was slaughtered as they tried to climb up the mountains from their boats. In real wars it takes 3 units to successfully attack one defending unit. To attack dug-in units in mountains are even harder. But in A&A an UK BB can shore-bombard  one german defender in Norway, and let 4 or more fighters/bombers from UK finish off the rest, and if 6 Germans defend Norway they may not even kill a single brit.

Historical the German landing in Northern Norway, Narvik-area, was only possible because the NS-party cooperated with the Germans and Quisling invited them to come. If the small Norwegian army had made resistance, the German invasion would never succeded. Mountains are very easy to defend.

I like the map as is now. If improvements must be, then there should be a pass through the Pyrenees too, so only 2 units can attack between Spain and France. Only 2 units can attack through Brenner pass, and that is correct. Also the Caucasus shold be split, and have a mountain territory in south called Trans-Caucasus, with a pass into Turkey and another pass into Iran/Persia. Just watch the news today how hard it is for the russian elite units/Spetznas to fight the rebells in the Caucasus mountains.

[Imperious Leader]

If improvements must be, then there should be a pass through the Pyrenees too, so only 2 units can attack between Spain and France. Only 2 units can attack through Brenner pass, and that is correct. Also the Caucasus shold be split, and have a mountain territory in south called Trans-Caucasus, with a pass into Turkey and another pass into Iran/Persia.

I was thinking about the southern Cacasus as a seperate territory to help protect the oil at Baku.

I also like the Pyrenees idea but since Spain didn’t go to war it hard to determine how much these mountains would have effected the fighting.

[Adlertag]

@Imperious:

I also like the Pyrenees idea but since Spain didn’t go to war it hard to determine how much these mountains would have effected the fighting.

The Allies never tried to attack through Brenner Pass neither, so its hard to determine that too.

Its only two Passes through Pyreneeas, and the mountains are as high and wild as the alps, so use the same rule as used Germany/Italy border. Also Spain had a war 1936 to 1938, and even in Napoleon wars the mountains had effect, the guerrilja (little war in Spanish) kicked the French out of the mountains.

And yes, Caucasus mountains with Europes highest mountains (Elbrus 5000 + meters) should make effect to movement.

[Imperious Leader]

OK ill make two new passes : Spain and Caucasus. Movement on the Soviet-Turkish border will be restricted to movement and combat as well as french-spainish border

Thus with these two we have also Brenner pass and China (Burma road)

What should the rules be for movement and combat??

i think only 2 land units can attack each round across it and no blitz thru these areas or should it be limited to how many units moving in a turn between these areas?

[Adlertag]

Agree  :-)

[tekkyy]

@Imperious:

For invasions I prefer combat modifyers to unit limits:

+1 to defenders in mountains
+1 to defenders against amphibious assault
(cumulative)

++++This is already the case in AARHE

Exactly. We have AARHE amphibious assault rules. Coastal bombardment effectiveness reduced. Attacking tanks and artillery fight from second combat cycle and only if attacker survives first combat cycle. Defending artillery fires in opening fire on first cycle.
Mountainous/snowy gives +1 defense.
You already need an overwhelming force to invade Norway.

@Imperious:

This ought to make Norway a tough enough nut to crack even when defended by just infantry. But attack by overwhelming force should be able to carry any invasion through.

++++ if you add the modifiers and limited invasion possibilities … then this is what you get.

No if you limit invasion possiblities then overwhelming force can’t happen.
So I am still against limiting mountainous amphibious assault to 2 units per sea zone.

As for the passes, if the geography calls for it that thats fine. Probably between 3-5 units depending on which pass though. IMO an AARHE round is 6 months, turn is 3 months.

@Imperious:

++++ I don’t see any rules regarding the Sahara Tekkyy. Can you post them?

Yeah we didn’t have (and shouldn’t have in the future) special rules for Sahara.
Just rules for desert terrain.

In addition to what you posted, you also pay upkeep for staying in the desert. Combine with the fact you can’t blitz thru it its already costly to invade sahara.
Oh and we now need to modifier it to 1 unit free or something cos China has to defend Inner Mongolia with at least 1 unit I guess.

[Nuclear]

As for Sahara if you have no rules about it.  My suggestion remove it.  I always thought it to be silly to have it on the map.

[Imperious Leader]

It serves the purpose to depriving conquest to occur unless its along the coast line. In the war nobody went thru it because it turns into that Humphrey Bogart movie called “Sahara” I watch it regularly. A few guys can block a brigade if they control the water holes.

Best line from the movie:

“I’m not risking my men for a big pile of spaghetti”– referring to the Italian prisoner they considered picking up.

[Flashman]

@tekkyy <br:< small=“”>> That’s my point.  Even with D-Day, only an overwhelming force concentrated on the invasion area managed to gain a foothold.  Even then if they’d had the courage to wake Hitler he might have scuppered the invasion by sending in more armour.

So make it difficult for invaders by sea with combat adjustments, not by limiting numbers.</br:<>

[Imperious Leader]

http://www.mediafire.com/?cwkgy2dhlwh

http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=0mbnboe6g2i

heres a random page of the new ruleset. I have 11 pages done. I have no idea why they add up to 307 MB!!

so heres one 27 MB page.

[templeton]

@Imperious:

http://www.mediafire.com/?cwkgy2dhlwh

http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=0mbnboe6g2i

heres a random page of the new ruleset. I have 11 pages done. I have no idea why they add up to 307 MB!!

so heres one 27 MB page.

This an exciting project - the map is stunning. Avalon Hill should take note!!!

[Imperious Leader]

thats old. we have that nearly completed by now. see tekkyy

[tekkyy]

Ok warp up on the 1939 scenario.

Map
Tornoto, Cape Town and Honululu position needs touch up.

Setup
Will you post the latest illustrator file and add setup icons?

Judging from the last file you have setup icons ~2007-10-02…
Spain and Turkey had no army.
And IC everywhere.

Rules
So I gave the 1939 rules back to you.
Have you made a final pass yet?

[Imperious Leader]

Map
Toronto, Cape Town and Honolulu position needs touch up.

+++++ i don’t know how far off my Honolulu is but it cant be more than 1 MM, because its a small island. ill check them

Setup
Will you post the latest illustrator file and add setup icons?

====== no thats why i made real set up sheets…i do have a nice file of free icons made by triple A people. perhaps you can add them in if you want a quick set up sheet. That last “set up sheet with icons” was a general idea that i used to begin the process of the set up. check out my set ups.

Judging from the last file you have setup icons ~2007-10-02…
Spain and Turkey had no army.
And IC everywhere.

===== that was just a preliminary thing. nothing final

Rules
So I gave the 1939 rules back to you.
Have you made a final pass yet?

======== i got them,i looked at them but no carefully. I would consider them done except not final until the setup is proofed.

[tekkyy]

Map
Was Benelux around in 1939?

VC
Honululu is not on the main island :lol:
Google maps showing location
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honoluluds3.png

Setup
Setups…so how we are we doing this?
Since 2007-10-02 information is too preliminary,
you should to post something new (map form or table form) so I can comment.
Only thing so far is to get rid all those new ICs. Tibet? Honolulu?  :wink:

Neutral
I feel neutral army in 1939 should be slightly reduced from 1942 level.

1942 Spain (4 IPC): 5 x infantry + artillery + tank + plane
1942 Turkey (3 IPC): 4 x infantry + artillery + tank
1942 Sweden (2 IPC): 3 x infantry + artillery

[Imperious Leader]

Map
Was Benelux around in 1939?

++++++++++++ i cant have Belgium and Holland. they are too small. Benelux is fine.

VC
Honululu is not on the main island cheesy
Google maps showing location
http://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=honoluluds3.png

=========== yes right. I should know because i have been to Honolulu twice. its the second island, with the other called “the big island”

Setup
Setups…so how we are we doing this?
Since 2007-10-02 information is too preliminary,
you should to post something new (map form or table form) so I can comment.
Only thing so far is to get rid all those new ICs. Tibet? Honolulu?  wink

===============throw that away… use the ones i posted for 1939.I am not making NEW ones

Neutral
I feel neutral army in 1939 should be slightly reduced from 1942 level.

1942 Spain (4 IPC): 5 x infantry + artillery + tank + plane
1942 Turkey (3 IPC): 4 x infantry + artillery + tank
1942 Sweden (2 IPC): 3 x infantry + artillery

+++++ then it complicates the game and adds nothing. What is the difference in a couple of units?

Otherwise people would attack on the last turn before the ‘extras’ show up to avoid dealing with them latter.

what do you propose?

BTW spain should have fleet units: destroyer and transport

Turkey should have a destroyer too.

[Imperious Leader]

actually spain had a destroyer and transport… its fine

heres the file with setups ( i ones i keep harping on but seem elusive.)

and no i don’t want to figure out why some pages print before others. I am basically fed up with that. If you can fix it then fine. People can always sort them out in whatever order they prefer.

i will edit the map again.

link:
http://www.mediafire.com/?6eazimb322j
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=tjyx1umovbx

don’t ask why it comes out “america set up” It does not matter, except that its got the information and its correct.

also Generals come out as 90 MB WTF!. I don’t understand whats this bullcrap, but its always something. (0 MB is like 3 times the amount as the freeking map and yet it takes 2 seconds to save, while the map takes 3 minutes to save each time.

freeking aggravating to say the least.

[Imperious Leader]

generals in PDF

http://www.mediafire.com/?4xzzxfn4dz9
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=qaoom2xfz29

http://www.mediafire.com/?fiarumm0mud
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=yexb0byaz1w

http://www.mediafire.com/?0e301f1gy1i
http://www.mediafire.com/upload_complete.php?id=sybnbfbzzbx

[tekkyy]

i cant have Belgium and Holland. they are too small. Benelux is fine.

In that case you should just call it by its region name. “Low”.
Being “historical edition” and all…people are gonna bring these things up. :wink:

Otherwise people would attack on the last turn before the ‘extras’ show up to avoid dealing with them latter.

Yeah I guess. As long as Spain and Turkey had no major mobilization between 1939 and 1942 thats fine.

Turkey should have a destroyer too.

Ok I’ll add it to the rules file and the OOB map.

heres the file with setups ( i ones i keep harping on but seem elusive.)

http://www.mediafire.com/?6eazimb322j

Ok good Honululu, South Africa and Australia IC gone.
India IC remains though?

Yes its elusive in table format. Will see it better on a map.

USSR: 3 new ICs (Karelia, Ukraine and Kazakh), is that fine? Is that really a transport (rather than submarine) at SZ 4?
Germany: Its interesting units are spread between East/West German yet income is all in East Germany.
US: IC and units are in “Western United States” while Los Angeles is in an empty “Southwest USA”.
Units: SPA artillery row isn’t actually used.
France: Can Germany actually take France?

Oh and the PDFs are editable in illustrator. So we can remove the “1.3” bit.

generals in PDF

Yeah these are much higher resolution. Much clearer.

[Imperious Leader]

Yes its elusive in table format. Will see it better on a map.

USSR: 3 new ICs (Karelia, Ukraine and Kazakh), is that fine?

===yes

Is that really a transport (rather than submarine) at SZ 4?

====yes soviets didn’t have enough subs in 1939 to be represented, however they of course had a merchant fleet, so it may allow for limited invasions on neutrals, or latter as convoy ships. IN Milton Bradley edition they had a transport.

Germany: Its interesting units are spread between East/West German yet income is all in East Germany.

====== again that dotted line is not a movement boundary but a control boundary to allow co-habitation of opposing forces and purposes of victory. For the German player this “line” is not a separate territory. The same goes for Poland where Germans and Russians share the territory. If one side takes Poland it counts as one territory for movement. But when Germany attacks Russia in east Poland its separate.

its that simple.

US: IC and units are in “Western United States” while Los Angeles is in an empty “Southwest USA”.

====Yes that has to be changed because i added latter USA territories. I leave it up to you to make adjustments, but they will be minor.

Units: SPA artillery row isn’t actually used.

==== not made in 1939 because Germans first used them against Soviets, because it was the first time they met armor that had anything to it. The frogs had garbage as well as the rest. But its not a technology.

France: Can Germany actually take France?

======== Yes indeed. German income and air units will trump France, On turn 1 Germany can take out Poland and Norway and Benelux easily. On turn 2 everything attacks france and they got a third turn to try it if it does not go well.

by turn 4 they should be into Africa and Yugoslavia, Greece etc…

perhaps do a test. with the dice using the setup for 1939 and potential German conquests.