KJF etc.

[Nix]

Losing FIGs to kill the Baltic Fleet is a waste of Allied air power

Switch! I think it´s here you are getting it wrong  :-D  :-D

hint Don´t loose them  :wink:

[trihero]

Africa’s just too convenient a place to unify Allied fleets and prevent any Sea Lion attempts.

I know you like to keep saying this, and it’s the correct strategy in many situations, but it’s not the point here. The point is, you’re spending THREE turns in Africa just because you don’t want to lose 1-2 fighters to the Baltic fleet? It will turn into 4 turns because the Baltic will just fly out to stall a landing in Norway after you’ve been tilting in Algeria for 3 turns. That’s too many turns not getting any troops into Europe.

[Jennifer]

Who’s spending 3 turns in Africa to save fighters per se?

Allied fleets to SZ 12.  Allied fleets to SZ 6 with massive British fighters to SZ 5 killing all in one round of battle and maybe taking a hit.

Very easy to do.  That’s only 1 round to Africa.

Easier is to just unify your fleets and pump Africa heavy while Russia holds Germany off, which is really easy to do for Russia, especially with Germany without African taxes to fund it’s war machine.  Then you move your combined fleets up north and dare the Germans to attack you.

Even if they put out submarines as pickets, it does nothing.  Just kills their submarines since most of what you want to do is done in the NCM portion anyway.  Sink or force them to submerge with a fighter and sail through.

You’re hung up on the idea that the allies automatically lose if England isn’t landing 4-6 units a round in North Asia by UK 2 with America landing the same by USA 3.  Not so.  Russia is perfectly capable of keeping Germany at bay by itself for 5 or 6 rounds before retreating back a rank.

[trihero]

Just focus on Africa for 3 turns and bring the AC, DD, TRN, TRN, SS from the Pacific/Indian oceans to the Atlantic.

From your own post, Jen.

You’re hung up on the idea that the allies automatically lose if England isn’t landing 4-6 units a round in North Asia by UK 2 with America landing the same by USA 3.

Wrong, I think it’s OK for the UK to be in Europe by Round 3. The way I understand your direct quote was that you’re focusing with both UK and US on Africa for 3 turns, which means a UK landing on round 4. My mistake if you didn’t explain well enough.

[Jennifer]

Round 1:

England, America, Russia to SZ 12/Algeria

Round 2:

America to Algeria
England, America, Russia to SZ 6/Norway

Round 3:

America to England
England, America, Russia to SZ 4/Karelia/Archangelsk

By this point, your fleets from Indian Ocean and Pacific Ocean should be near Brazil and North Africa, a move away from England in any case.

[trihero]

Round 1:

England, America, Russia to SZ 12/Algeria

If you do, your fleet is finished. 1 bb + 2 tran + 3 subs + 1 dest + 5 fighters + 1 bomber, or some lesser combination thereof, to kill 4 tran 1 bb 1 dest 1 sub 1 car 2 fig.

Round 2:

America to Algeria
England, America, Russia to SZ 6/Norway

With what fleet? If you didn’t get Algeria on turn one, then you go there on the second turn, which is extremely likely considering the massive force waiting for you if you try to land on turn one. If you go there on the second turn, I’ll simply picket a sub in SZ7 to stop the UK from taking Norway on the third turn, since you didn’t bother to pay any attention to the German fleet. Sure you can move noncombat to SZ6, but you can’t land anything there with UK since that has to be a combat move.

There must be some detail that you’re not explaining that allows you the confidence of trying to land so soon. It simply seems like you feel you can expose so many transports. I’m not even sure what your build is. Any car/dest? Or neither of each? Mind you what Im’ doing is running the Baltic and linking it with the one sub from SZ8…you’ve said you dont’ like strafing with planes, and you changed your mind about trying to “counter” with a car/dest build, so now what?

[Guest]

SZ5 cannot reach SZ12 on G2, without advance German fleet movements, which would tip off the UK and USA that something was up, to which they would respond appropriately…

[trihero]

What would be the appropriate response for you, Switch and Jen, if the Baltic does try to run away? I have my own idea which is to strafe the Baltic fleet if it’s trying to escape, but it seems like Jen at least would never consider it. Simply allowing the Baltic to run away can majorly impact things later, even if the only thing is to make the Americans overbuild fighters/navy. At the cost of 0 German naval IPCs! : )

[Guest]

If they run, I will probably hit them HARD with UK and wipe them out (all available naval and air forces of UK against the Baltic Fleet (plus SZ8 SUB as you advocated).

Battle is either:
2 TRN, 1 BB, 2 FIG, 1 BOM (if Germans are in SZ7)
1 TRN, 1 BB, 2 FIG, 1 BOM (if Termans are in SZ6)

Against 1 TRN, 3 SUB, 1 DST

The odds are that UK survives with:
SZ7: 2 FIG, 1 BOM, 1 BB
SZ8:  2 FIG, 1 BB (losing BOM before FIGs)

Then drop a build of an AC and TRN in the battle sea zone, land FIGs on the AC, move the Russian SUB to join the fleet and DARE the Germans to come after my fleet on G2 usign only Luftwaffe for the attack (the Med Fleet is getting no where near that battle…)
5 FIG, 1 BOM vs 1 TRN, 1 SUB, 1 AC, 2 FIG, 1 BB
Only 26% odds for Germany, at the cost of the entire Luftwaffe.

[trihero]

Then drop a build of an AC and TRN in the battle sea zone, land FIGs on the AC, move the Russian SUB to join the fleet and DARE the Germans to come after my fleet on G2 usign only Luftwaffe for the attack (the Med Fleet is getting no where near that battle…)

What’re you blocking the med fleet off with? A dest or tran?

[Guest]

TRN.  And grabbing Algeria for the hell of it with 1 INF, 1 ARM.

[trihero]

Still sounds like the best Axis opener. For buying 0 naval IPCS, you cost the Allies 3 transports and made the UK buy the carrier. At the beginning of turn 2 the UK only has 1 tran to land somewhere, meaning Germany can get farther in Africa than normal. How’s that for an “impotent” Baltic fleet?  :evil:

[newpaintbrush]

@trihero:

Still sounds like the best Axis opener. For buying 0 naval IPCS, you cost the Allies 3 transports and made the UK buy the carrier. At the beginning of turn 2 the UK only has 1 tran to land somewhere, meaning Germany can get farther in Africa than normal. How’s that for an “impotent” Baltic fleet?  :evil:

Hey, what was that Baltic fleet move again?

I betchoo I can do somethin wid da Allies that will rock teh Axis . . . unless you have a really fat Axis bid someplace, so be sure to mention how much the Axis bid and where it went (also the Russian and German moves; I reserve the right to veto any Russian move that I judge to be “on crack”).

[Jennifer]

Exactly, if the SZ 5 fleet stays home, the combined allied fleet in SZ 12 is still killable, but it takes Geramny’s air force and it’s going to punch some serious holes in it.  Not worth it usually.

If the SZ 5 fleet runs to SZ 3, 6, 7 or 8, I’ll sink em and sink em GOOD.  Depending where they are and where I am, I may or may not bring the Battleship.

The idea of not using the Battleship is to save it for later, thus not needing a carrier.  The idea of using the battleship is to absorb a free hit and add to a carrier to make the German’s royally pay for making a channel dash on the counter-attack and the attack.

As I said though, it kind of depends what the board looks like at this point.

[trihero]

I betchoo I can do somethin wid da Allies that will rock teh Axis . . . unless you have a really fat Axis bid someplace, so be sure to mention how much the Axis bid and where it went (also the Russian and German moves; I reserve the right to veto any Russian move that I judge to be “on crack”).

I didn’t say this Axis opener would win the game or even shift the bids much if at all. I said it was the best available option with 0 German naval IPCs, to which I have heard no contradiction. All I hear is YAY the German navy will be sunk so bad, but that’s not the point. It’s beyond obvious that Germany can’t be a naval power, but how do you maximize what you’ve got? Linking the Baltic + SZ8 sub is a great move that discomforts the Allies much more than any other move I have seen, especially considering that it costs 0 naval IPCs which allows a full land build. Sitting in the Baltic is pretty bad because it lets the Allies deal with the navy on their own time, but running away forces them to do something about it immediately. That’s a bomber that can’t be used to counterattack in Anglo Egypt, a couple of dead UK transports, and a sacrificed American transport if you use Switch’s counter.

[Jennifer]

Linking the SZ 5 and SZ 8 fleets is not wise.

It’s much wiser to leave the SZ 5 fleet in SZ 5.  This way, if England wants to kill it, they have to risk all their aircraft to get it.  Otherwise, they risk losing 1 aircraft and a transport to sink the combined SZ 8 and SZ 5 fleet and prevent you from doing much of anything about it.

[Guest]

There is a cost though Wes… 1, maybe 2 German FIGs in SZ13 if you go air-only on the BB

A Med Fleet attack with AF and DST if the Med Fleet heads west.

I argued this whole Channel Dash thing over and over a bout a year ago with the guy that runs Caspian Sub.  It is NOT a viable German option, only a fast way to lose your ENTIRE navy and most of your airforce, instead of just the Baltic Fleet.

[trihero]

There is a cost though Wes… 1, maybe 2 German FIGs in SZ13 if you go air-only on the BB

A Med Fleet attack with AF and DST if the Med Fleet heads west.

I argued this whole Channel Dash thing over and over a bout a year ago with the guy that runs Caspian Sub.  It is NOT a viable German option, only a fast way to lose your ENTIRE navy and most of your airforce, instead of just the Baltic Fleet.

Wait, I don’t understand…what’re you talking about? Air only on what BB? Send the Med bb/tran and 2 fighters to kill the SZ13 BB. Take Gibraltar.

And why do you keep saying that Germany has to sacrifice their airforce? You don’t have to make attacks that cost you airforce. You don’t understand how the threat of an attack slows the Allies down, and that is the point. No one’s trying to say that you should be able to take out Allied shipping, or that you even should actually try to at the cost of airforce. It’s about slowing the Allies down, letting them sacrifice 3 transports at low to no cost to German airforce, and making the Uk buy the carrier.

It’s much wiser to leave the SZ 5 fleet in SZ 5.  This way, if England wants to kill it, they have to risk all their aircraft to get it.

But you see, England has quite a few options. They don’t have to kill it immediately; they could build up an extra fighter or two. They can build anywhere they want to and make pretty much anything they want to if the Baltic is waiting there for UK action. However, moving out prompts the UK to immediately sacrifice 2 transports and the US to sacrifice another tranport and makes the UK build a carrier and also jettisons their tank from W. Canada, which I forgot to mention earlier. That is 24-29 IPCs of units that must be replaced. You don’t have to rebuild the fighters/bomber that you lose if you attack the Baltic, they don’t influence your ability to land or build up forces. But transports you have to replace. That’s about a rounds worth of truly delaying the Allies.

[Guest]

Sticking the German fleets out front too early is simply a way to remove any roadblocks that the Allies would  have to face later.  There is NO slow down.  Allies either lose 1 turn early taking out the fleets, or 1 turn later taking out the fleets when the time comes to make their landings.

And losing the Kriegsmarine early means that Germany has to defend more of its coast from immediate amphib than they would if they could rely on their navy to give them 1 round of defense first.

[trihero]

There is NO slow down.  Allies either lose 1 turn early taking out the fleets, or 1 turn later taking out the fleets when the time comes to make their landings.

The Allies lose no time taking out the Baltic fleet on UK 1 with airforce. Their transport system hasn’t been impacted in the slightest, there is no 1 turn delay sooner or later, and they can rely on less defense than usual since there’s already no more German naval fodder. 0 turns delay!

I don’t see how you can say NO slow down when the allies are down 3 transports, possibly the tank from Canada, UK building a carrier. That is a slow down right there, plus to Germany.

If the Baltic sits in SZ5, then the Allies knock it out immediately, not spending a single dime to replace their transport system. UK doesn’t have to spend a turn rebuilding its airforce, but it does have to spend a turn rebuilding its transport system.