Redesign 1941 Setup on v5 1942.2 San Francisco Experiment

  • '17 '16

    Maybe I have to change an option about Always active AA.

    I don’t want a secondary capital for now. I just need to play considering VTs bonus.
    Giving IPCs when controled is not integrated in engine actually. I’m bit lazy to make the calculations and edit IPCs on hands. I will focus on this when general dynamics will be OK.

    I really like the various play patterns for Japan too.

    How I see the issue with Eastern Front is that it needs a few Infantry remaining after G1 in Baltic (not difficult), but also Belorussia and Ukraine. Otherwise, the first Russian counter can get ride of half Artys and Tanks either in Ukraine or Belorussia.

    It makes less TUV to keep in reserve to turn either toward UK (Sea Lion) or going toward Moscow.

    In my mind, Barbarossa should work G1 and G2 then being repelled.
    I’m not against increasing armies in East, adding 1 Tank in Vologda and 1 or 2 Infantry in Evenki, or 1 in Russia and another in Evenki something like that.

    I just think Germany should be able to capture G2 West Russia and Karelia and/or Caucasus.
    But should payed it dearly with the help of Eastern Units and build up of R1.

    The idea is that trying to swap Caucasus G1 will be costly in planes and let survives Soviet TcB or Fg.
    These can be very useful for Russia even R1.

  • '17 '16

    OK, keeping Norway and NWE for now.
    Baltic TP is easier to protect with BB, DD so it can be possible to ship more units in Norway G2 or G3.
    It will remain under microscope.

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I agree that the eastern front should normally have at least a couple of rounds of back-and-forth battles, instead of just Germany crushing Russia’s advance forces and then Russia wiping out the German tank corps. However, I think putting more German infantry on the front line is not the way to make that happen…in order to take and hold all three of Baltic States, Belorussia, and Ukraine on G1, Germany should be forced to dedicate about half of its air force to Barbarossa, meaning that either the British Atlantic Fleet or the Russian Air Force will live.

    I did not keep your v3 changes.

    I think there is room to bulk up the German army in Southern Europe – the Yugoslavia campaign finished only a couple of months before Barbarossa started, so significant German forces would have still been there. Compared to your v2, I added +2 infantry to Southern Europe, +1 infantry to Berlin, and +1 tactical bomber to Finland. I also moved one tank from Romania to Southern Europe, to show Romania’s relatively weak tank corps.

    Then, I added +1 infantry to Archangel, and converted the AA gun in West Russia into an infantry. This both potentially gives Russia some land units to fight back with on R1, and reduces the swingyness of the G1 airblitz battles. I also added +1 infantry in Kazakh and +1 infantry in Novosibirsk, to help set up additional counter-attacks / stacks on R1.

    In the Pacific theater, I moved the Midway stack back one space to Iwo Jima, and added an American destroyer in Midway. This means that the only possible attack on Pearl Harbor J1 is with subs and planes – if Japan wants to stack the Hawaiian sea zone on J1, it will have to kill at least one blocking destroyer, kill the Hawaiian fleet with subs/planes, and then move in the carriers on non-combat – possible, but more difficult and now requires even more resources. There is also a better chance for the American sub in Hawaii to survive long enough to submerge, adding punch to the A1 counter-attack.

    As compensation, I gave Japan a submarine in SZ 61 (Chinese coast), which allows Japan to hit the British BB off India on J1 with 1 sub and 1, 2, or 3 fighters from Thailand and/or the Okinawa carrier. If they don’t bring fighters from the Okinawa carrier, Britain has even odds to win the battle; if they do bring fighters from Okinawa, Japan should win, but Japan may lose a fighter, and it will probably make it impossible for Japan to safely stack Hawaii on J1.

    Finally, I gave London +2 inf, -1 tank, +1 AAA gun and 6 starting bombing damage. I also gave Berlin 3 starting bombing damage, to be fair. The problem was that a G1 Sea Lion has a 30% chance to succeed if you bring the maximum attack of 1 inf, 1 tnk, 3 ftr, 2 tacB (one fighter can reach from NW Europe and return safely to NW Europe, and you can build 2 carriers in the North Sea from NW Europe that the extra 4 planes can land on). This is extremely swingy, in a bad way, because the battle happens before the Allies make any decisions at all, and if Germany wins the 30% battle then it gets to loot the entire British treasury, which is devastating. The new G1 Sea Lion only works 9% of the time, which seems low enough that only crazy people will go for it.

    I think a G3 Sea Lion will probably fail all the time on our setup unless the German player somehow achieves near-total surprise…London’s industrial capacity of 8 and relatively large economy means that Britain can always just drop 8 infantry in London, and then have Canada / USA / Russia fly over a few fighters to help reinforce the island. I think instead of trying to combine the German Med and German Baltic fleets (which takes too long), it makes more sense for an anti-British opener to send both transports to Egypt. If Japan follows up by moving its carriers west and attacking India and ANZAC, then Britain will be forced to fight on all fronts at once, and it really cannot afford to do so, especially if both Germany and Japan build a couple of strategic bombers each to bomb Britain’s factories.

    I hope this addresses some of your concerns!

    SanFran_1941_Alpha03.tsvg

  • '17 '16

    Good catch on a too early Sea Lion!
    I will look all of this closely.
    Though I like the swingyness of an AAA in West Russia.
    Anyway, only aircrafts may attack it.
    AAA is an opening 1 time impact.
    Of course, it is against up to 3 planes…
    Maybe too much on opening.

    Below, it is a game v2 which finishes off Japan in 4 rounds!

    It make me thinks IJN needs 1 more TP to achieve an early faster control of TTs and even a double opening which may includes Pearl, Midway and Alaska.
    Otherwise, it seems to remain with a low income.

    I will look closely at your new Japan overhaul.
    (For my part, I was moving the Midway Sub into Carolines Island: so only 1 DD and 4 planes could have attacked US West Coast but the Sub may have reach Pearl Harbor.)

    You can also look closely G1 and R1 counter. Germany was not able to pull any Sea Lion because the Subs failed radically on UK’s BB. It was a slow attrition of higher value units. At the end, Germany was only keeping Art and Infantry.
    It was not enough units to overwhelmed Soviet Union.
    The initial swing on planes allows Soviet to keep a lot of them.
    I’m not sure it is a good idea to add another Infantry in Archangel…
    If one more Infantry is needed, I would rather place it in Russia.

    There is a lot of small changes with interesting outcomes. I will have to analyse it more closely.
    I will come back to you about it in a day or two.

    1941Argo_edit setupv2_TcBsRussia4Gb.tsvg

  • '17 '16

    I think there is room to bulk up the German army in Southern Europe – the Yugoslavia campaign finished only a couple of months before Barbarossa started, so significant German forces would have still been there. Compared to your v2, I added +2 infantry to Southern Europe, +1 infantry to Berlin, and +1 tactical bomber to Finland. I also moved one tank from Romania to Southern Europe, to show Romania’s relatively weak tank corps.

    Then, I added +1 infantry to Archangel, and converted the AA gun in West Russia into an infantry. This both potentially gives Russia some land units to fight back with on R1, and reduces the swingyness of the G1 airblitz battles. I also added +1 infantry in Kazakh and +1 infantry in Novosibirsk, to help set up additional counter-attacks / stacks on R1.

    I’m a bit torn up by Alpha 3 setup.
    IMO, it is too much planes in Finland from an historical POV.
    It was already a stretch with 1 Fg and 1 TcB.
    Are you against moving back the single Infantry into Russia?
    (I really want to give a 2 rounds momentum to Germany to reach almost Russia (before Eastern forces push them backward). And allowing a single counter TT on R1.)
    What about removing the AAA in Yakut and 1 Infantry in Novo but giving one Tank in Evenki?

    Also, from a general POV, one comparative I made to better find where the balance can be is to compared ground units in OOB 1942.2. Since it allows one round of expansion, then Allies counter, I think Japan need at least the same number of units in mainland Asia to be able to push forward at least 2 rounds. Otherwise, it will always remain behind because there is already more opposition in China (more units, including 1 art and an IC) and in Soviet Union.

    What do you think of adding another US Carrier on West Coast and moving 1 Fighter on it;
    something like that, to increase US mobility (and more accurately depict the number of 2 Carrier Task force available in PTO: Enterprise, Lexington and  Saratoga, at San Diego during Pearl Harbour, torpedoed after first attempt to liberate Wake, being repaired WUSA at the time of Midway Ops, ATO:  Yorktown, Hornet and Wasp were rapidly sent into Pacific Ocean too) early actions and to diverge more from 1941 AA50 setup? I moved US Sub from West Coast to Pearl Harbor. It left more option to US player to save them (for US1 counter) or take them as casualties.

    To offset somehow, it will be more interesting to add 1 Fighter in Carolines Island: Truk was such an important Naval and Air Base at that time for PTO (like an IJN Pearl Harbor). And use your added Sub into the mix in Japan.

    What do you think of Wake and Midway Airbase?
    IMO, Wake becomes an historical target that way while Midway is optional (1 more TcB for US).

    However, maybe a more direct (and historical event) combat between planes and UK’s BB maybe more epic on opening. Something like 1 Fg+1TcB in FIC, vs 1 BB: 60%-25%- draw 15%
    But Infantry on land will have far less air support or waiting J2 and make a more easier Naval Battle with all IJN units within range against UK’s regrouped fleet?
    I gave 1 Fg and 1 Sub to India in compensation.

    SanFran_1941_Alpha04BaronSnap.png
    SanFran_1941_Alpha04Baron.tsvg

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Barbarossa

    So, there are four “levels” of Barbarossa attacks that Germany can make on turn 1.

    • Level 1: Minimum Attack – attack only Baltic States, Belorussia, and Ukraine. Use mostly infantry, with tanks kept in reserve; the idea is to trade eastern europe back and forth.

    • Level 2: Conquering Attack – attack only Baltic States, Belorussia, and Ukraine, but use all available land units, with the idea of permanently holding eastern europe.

    • Level 3: Penetrating Attack – attack most of Baltic States, Belorussia, Ukraine, Karelia, Archangel, West Russia, and Caucasus, with the idea of holding the border territories and trading Leningrad/Stalingrad.

      • Level 4: Maximum Attack – attack all of Soviet Union west of Moscow, and expect to hold it for at least one full turn.

      In my opinion, Level 4 should be impossible from our starting setup without amazing luck or a German bid. It is not fun for the Russian player to immediately lose everything west of Moscow and be unable to take any of it back on R1. It is also unrealistic – it took Hitler five months to make it from Poland to the gates of Moscow, which probably represents at least two game turns. Because it is not fun and not realistic for Germany to immediately conquer everything west of Moscow, that should not be allowed to happen in our setup. Do you agree?

      If you agree, then there are some major problems with your v3 and v4 setups. First, if you put 4 infantry in Finland, then Germany can easily use the Finnish infantry plus 2-3 planes to conquer Karelia on G1, or at least wipe out all but one of the starting Russian infantry there. Similarly, Germany can easily use the Italy / Southern Europe infantry plus 2-3 planes to conquer Caucasus on G1. Combined with the lack of starting Russian infantry in Archangel and West Russia, this means that Russia literally has nothing left that can counter-attack in Baltic States, Belorussia, or Ukraine. Germany does not have to worry about leaving tanks exposed on the “front line”, because Germany has already wiped out a whole second row of territories beyond the front line. It’s all dead. Russia loses all its starting units west of Moscow, and therefore basically loses its whole first turn. All Russia can do is build infantry and move reinforcements forward from central Asia. Russia cannot even afford to re-take the Caucasus, because whatever Russia puts in the Caucasus will get hit (and killed) again on G2 at a profit for Germany.

      Despite all this, with enough starting income and enough Russian starting infantry in Moscow / Novsibirsk / Vologda / Evenki / Kazakh, I think it will usually be possible for Russia to hold Moscow and eventually launch a counter-attack on R3 or R4, which is part of what you want. But I still don’t think this is fun for Russia! Russia should get to do something in the opening other than just sit around and wait for its recruiting to start making a difference. It is one thing for Germany to have the advantage in Eastern Europe in the opening; it’s another to give all of Russia west of Moscow to Germany without a real fight. Conquering Archangel / West Russia / Caucasus will be much more fun for Germany (and more fair to Russia) if Germany has to earn those territories by attacking wisely over 2 turns, instead of just using a standard opening move that will work 95%+ of the time.

      Adding more infantry to Moscow or a tank to Evenki does not really fix this problem, because the units are too far away from the front line. It helps make sure Moscow will hold, but it does nothing to help Russia counter-attack eastern Europe.

      You say you want to allow a single counter TT on R1, which I assume means that on R1, Russia should be able to successfully counter-attack one territory that Germany took on G1. Which territory did you have in mind? With the map as you have it now, I do not see any such territories.

      East Asian Mainland

      I do not want to disturb the Yakut / Vologda setup…I think it works very nicely. 3 inf, 1 art, 1 AAA gives Yakut a solid backstop. If combined with the Buryatia + SFE forces, Russia winds up with 7 inf, 1 art, 1 AAA, which is enough to absorb a medium-sized Japanese attack or to go on the offense against a small Japanese garrison. This can be the new “standard move,” and if Russia wants to bring the Siberia Guard home more quickly, the 3 inf, 1 art in Yakut can go to Europe, while the 4 inf, 1 AAA stay in place in Yakut as a small deterrent to force Japan to bring in significant forces to take Siberia. If Russia wants to go heavy in the Pacific, it can bring in the Vologda forces to wind up with 8 inf, 1 art, 1 tnk, 1 AAA, which is a serious threat to Japanese interests in east Asia. One or both of the Vologda units (inf, tnk) could also go to China, instead. I think this all works well as-is and I do not want to disturb it.

      You suggest increasing the starting Japanese forces, and I am not totally opposed to the idea. Maybe they need +1 tank or something. I do not want to increase them too much, because the point is to give China a chance to hold and even grow if Japan does not invest in crushing them. The point is not to just rewind the 1942 battles by two turns and have them all come out exactly as scripted. If Japan needs more starting forces (and it might), then I would like to put them in Tokyo, not in Manchuria. That way Japan can choose to ship the forces to China, or leave them in Tokyo for defense, or send them to Australia, Hawaii, Alaska, etc – it is Japan’s choice how to use those troops.

      I reviewed your game where Japan was eliminated on turn 4, and I think you got very unlucky in Hawaii (on low luck, you had only 1% chance to lose the land battle as Japan with your 3 inf, 1 art vs. 1 inf, 1 ftr), and then after that you mis-handled the Japanese forces. You lost all of your transports on turns 1 and 2, but you still kept buying land forces for Tokyo, and then you had no way to ship those forces off of Tokyo to the front lines. After you lost the remnants of your fleet in your second attack on the Hawaiian sea zone, the Allies effectively had naval superiority across the entire Pacific Ocean, but you continued to build destroyers and transports as if the Japanese sea zone was safe, and the Allies were able to sink those new Japanese boats at a profit. Finally, when America was getting ready to invade Japan, you continued to build some boats and tanks, and you put 3 units into your Manchurian factory, instead of max-placing infantry in Tokyo to force the Allies into a longer, less profitable military buildup.

      I think it is fine to put one starting airplane each on Caroline Islands, Wake, and Midway if you want to. I think the islands are already somewhat useful as a place to do emergency landings of aircraft that started out on carriers (and as a place to land “surplus” planes if you want to fly them over from Los Angeles / Tokyo in excess of the number of carriers you have in position), but I can see where adding starting aircraft would be a fun way to get those islands into even more regular use.

      I am strongly opposed to the direction you are taking the US Pacific fleets. We keep adding more and more ships to San Francisco, while leaving Hawaii basically the same. In your v4, America has only 32 IPCs in Pearl Harbor, out of 170 IPCs total in the Pacific. This means that even if Japan sinks everything in Pearl Harbor, it does not “cripple” US naval power, even temporarily. We need to make a decision about whether attacking the San Francisco fleet on J1 should be (a) impossible, (b) possible but reckless, © an interesting anti-American opening option, or (d) the standard move. I think (d) is a bad idea because it means lots more putting pieces onto the starting setup only to take them off the board again before you get your first turn. Just like it is not fun for Russia to lose everything west of Moscow before R1, it is not fun for USA to lose everything west of Mexico before USA-1. I am fine with (a), (b), or © as long as the US will have a reasonable US-1 counter-attack. I like the idea of forcing America to respond to a strong anti-American opening by Japan by diverting fighters from Eastern US and spending 30+ IPCs in the Pacific on US-1 – this way Japan can choose to indirectly support Germany by forcing the USA to focus in the Pacific in the early game instead of allowing the US to proceed with Operation Torch.

      Thai air force vs. Indian BB

      This is fine; I like the way it works.

  • '17 '16

    Pretty in-depth analysis Argo.
    You put a lot in this.
    In my mind, there is no viable possibility for Germany to trade Eastern Europe.
    It means not enough income and too much for Soviet.
    It needs level 2 or 3 to works.
    Actually, trying to take Karelia and Caucasus G1 imply that only 1 Italian Fg can be used against UK (fleet or Egypt). Meaning UK fleet will be in good shape.
    Also, it makes very hard to get rid of Arch Fg and WR TcBs if fighting for both Karelia and Caucasus G1.
    It makes for Pyrhic victory in my two or three attempts living Soviet with more starting planes while losing many Fg and TcB in opening.

    This makes for 2 interesting options IMO, a pure level 2 Conquer with a balanced choice between UK fleet and Soviet Aircrafts. Usually, only Russia’s Fg and TcB can attack R1 either helping Caucasus or Karelia counter-attack on most vulnerable German stack (Belo or Ukraine). G2 will retake it and at most control Caucasus and Leningrad, leaving West Russia and Archangel.

    A level 3 Penetrating attack gives no opportunity to directly attack Belo or Ukraine but Caucasus is easily reconquered (here, we differ : Soviet have to retake it for income and not allowing G build up) and you probably still hold Karelia and now, you have more planes to play with or, at least, Germany have much less. G2 will then gets Leningrad, West Russia, Caucasus and maybe Archangel. That will be the maximum expansion. But R2 will have much more to counter and repel with more Infantry and planes (that is where I saw Evenki third Tank useful with all planes).

    That’s how I see it. Playing with more aircrafts imply much more options to use Infantry to trade TTs with Germany.
    If Germany has no real opportunity to trade Archangel, Caucasus and Western Russia, its income will be too low and UK will easily block Baltic fleet by taking Norway. And fighting back and forth over it, allows to increase UK’s fleet steadily with US and UK units.
    In fact, Norway is of main importance if there is a raid against UK’s fleet otherwise, the Luftwaffe is toasted with no fodder.

    In Eastern Soviet, there is so much units that is a repellant in itself. In addition, the Chinese factory is a magnet that becomes prioritize along taking 2 IPCs Kwantung.
    Japan has to wait for Soviet calling eastern troops for help against Germany, otherwise it will be too bloody for one or two 1 IPC TTs.

    I believed by giving an additional back up tank, which can be use in either east or west, I gave more options to Russian players. I’m not a russian stacker, I rather like play offense and trade where Germany is weaker. Is it what you want by adding more russian units to front line, making stronger Karelia as a viable option?

    Penetrating attack seems to me an handicapping tactics for airfleets but you have more boots on the East, level 2 allows to keep more planes but makes at least 1 TT vulnerable to R1 counter and it delay the income level next turn.

    On Yakut AAA, what is it suppose to represent?
    I do not want to change anything else, but it seems to me that Eastern divisions were less static and brings tanks with them. That’s why I think to better depict them and it was more useful also to get 1 unit which may fight either east or west.

  • '17 '16

    I am strongly opposed to the direction you are taking the US Pacific fleets. We keep adding more and more ships to San Francisco, while leaving Hawaii basically the same. In your v4, America has only 32 IPCs in Pearl Harbor, out of 170 IPCs total in the Pacific. This means that even if Japan sinks everything in Pearl Harbor, it does not “cripple” US naval power, even temporarily. We need to make a decision about whether attacking the San Francisco fleet on J1 should be (a) impossible, (b) possible but reckless, © an interesting anti-American opening option, or (d) the standard move. I think (d) is a bad idea because it means lots more putting pieces onto the starting setup only to take them off the board again before you get your first turn. Just like it is not fun for Russia to lose everything west of Moscow before R1, it is not fun for USA to lose everything west of Mexico before USA-1. I am fine with (a), (b), or © as long as the US will have a reasonable US-1 counter-attack. I like the idea of forcing America to respond to a strong anti-American opening by Japan by diverting fighters from Eastern US and spending 30+ IPCs in the Pacific on US-1 – this way Japan can choose to indirectly support Germany by forcing the USA to focus in the Pacific in the early game instead of allowing the US to proceed with Operation Torch.

    I almost add 1 Cruiser to 1 Sub and 1 BB in Pearl Harbor, finally I changed my mind to a second Sub.
    To not loose to much planes on this attack.
    The issue with West Coast is that 2 Fgs and 2 TcBs can still wreck havoc in SZ.
    IJN was in Midway and with 1 Sub and air can wipe it.
    Then you put it in Iwo SZ with a DD blocker in Midway SZ.
    The last option is to place 2 Carriers in Okinawa and place the last one somewhere else (maybe in China Sea, IDK).
    Actually, the additional Carrier with 1 Fg, 1 Cruiser, 1 DD and 1 Sub gives only D10 for 5 hits while IJN has A14 attack with 4 hits. It can be very swingy. US player may decide to save Sub, or take the Carrier first before Cruiser. This can be viewed as if IJN found the carrier (Lexington) shipping planes to Midway or Enterprise coming back from Wake. This last one could have really occurred, a matter of a few hours: some scouting bombers even fight over Pearl Harbor !!!
    But IJN is risking planes directly too, same way as against UK’s BB. (Glad we agree on that one.)

    Maybe another idea to downscale West Coast is to place 2 Carriers in Okinawa and only 1 Iwo, that way West Coast can be downsized by 1 Cruiser and 1 Sub.
    I still would let 1 DD and 1 Carrier with 1 TcB in West Coast while moving Fg in West USA.
    It makes 1 TcB+1 Fg a daring raid, pretty reckless opening.

    This would allows all Carriers to regroup at Midway, if Japanese player wanted it.

    On Wake and Midway, it provides at least a reason to invade, particularly Wake.
    That way, it feels more understandable that Japan controlled it for the duration of WWII.

    I put 6 TPs and add 1 Inf and 1 Art in China because on J1, Japan has so much to do to reach around 30 $ income. Anyway, it will not be similar to 1942.2, China is much more heavily defended and US get Artillery to punch hole into Imp Japan Army and may received more help from UK.
    At most, J2 will put a few units on Chinese coast.

    The main issue with IJN is that splitting too much escort for each single TP is very risky.
    Probably 1 or 2 have to be sacrificed to increase income fast.


    Edit: I posted a different PTO with less powerful unit in WUSA coast and Mexico Coast.
    I increased to 2 Fgs the US Carrier South of Hawaii.
    Trading 1 plane 10 IPCs for 1 DD 5 IPCs is not interesting for Japan.

    Wherever I moved Carriers, their planes were able to reach USWest coast and sink everything while establishing an unassailable Midway fleet. This is the big issue, allowing Carrier to reach either Hawaii or Midway (which is correct for late 1941, early 1942) without sinking US fleet.

    So, I downsized this US fleet while increasing the counter capacity from the only US Carrier.

    It gives a general idea of US fleet distribution: no BB, a few Cruisers, a lot of Destroyers, only 3 Carriers available in PTO and many Subs. Subs will survive according to US player casualty choices.
    Particularly,  Hawaii now gets 3 Subs, to simulate multiple waves on Hawaii to sink them (if US choose to take them as casualty while Battleship take them down). This will increase the opening variety for US1 and gives a real tactical decision for US player.

    As a counter, I increase by 1 Cruiser IJN in Chinese Sea and moved in Japan SZ the other Battleship. It allows more possibility to cover TPs, allows an opening on Alaska, Midway or as usual in Philippines but Cruiser is more vulnerable to Submarine.
    IMO, Japan need to expand fast and it allows for more small skirmishes everywhere. I have the feel that Allies will be able to pick their fights and slowly decrease IJN strength (India have an additional Fg and a Submarine in Red Sea).
    Also, there was many Japanese Cruisers which were sunk in WWII. A single unit seems too few to show the might of IJN gunships.
    I named it Alpha5 because you may have decided to move in another direction (Alpha 4 is still open.)

    From my first partial tries, I can say that it gives a feel for Japan to open up the engines because you can cover a bit more your TPs, but US counter is somewhat devastating (on Hawaii) if not enough Carriers in same SZ. Hawaii is really a deadzone with this setup and too much split is hard on IJN.
    Even with an additional Cruiser, you still feel there is too many targets to take care of in a single assault.
    Russian Sub in that configuration is pretty dangerous against Chinese Cruiser, DD and TP: in one test I loose all units. I would probably move 1 TP in Japan SZ. So, if it hits the mark, there is still 5 TPs remaining. But it left Soviet Sub with an interesting target to open hostility if you wish.

    BB can remain in Chinese SZ while Cruiser is placed in Japan SZ. That way, there is no real interesting target J1 and must R2 to kill something with it.

    SanFran_1941_Alpha05Baron.tsvg

  • '17 '16

    Here is an extract from a page which worth the reading.
    It may help better depict our set up and R1 / R2 positioning.

    Whichever way data is analysed, the whole Siberian transfer story is a myth in all respects: including timing, numbers, source of personnel and overall combat performance

    WHERE DID THE NEW RED ARMY DIVISIONS COME FROM?
    So the question is; who stopped the Germans in December 1941 if it couldn’t possibly have been hordes of newly arrived Siberian or East Front troops?

    The answer is a massive number of newly mobilised and deployed divisions and brigades. The Soviet land model shows that 182 rifle divisions, 43 militia rifle divisions, eight tank divisions, three mechanised divisions, 62 tank brigades, 50 cavalry divisions, 55 rifle brigades, 21 naval rifle brigades, 11 naval infantry brigades, 41 armies, 11 fronts and a multitude of other units were newly Mobilised and Deployed (MD) in the second half of 1941. If Mobilized and Not Deployed (MND) units are included then this list is considerably higher.(2) Even if the few Siberian divisions exhibited a higher than average combat proficiency in the winter of 1941/42, their contribution was almost insignificant compared to the mass of newly mobilised units. There is no doubt that the 1941 Soviet mobilisation programme was simply the largest and fastest wartime mobilisation in history. The multitude of average Soviet soldiers from all over the USSR that made up these units saved the day, and definitely not the existing units transferred west after June 1941, or the mostly non-existent and mythical Siberian divisions.

    It seems very likely the term “Siberian” was applied to any division that exhibited an above average proficiency or resilience in combat. This was similar to, but less official than, a “Guards” designation which the Stavka started awarding to such divisions in 1941. Ultimately it cost nothing to name a division “Siberian”, “Guards” or “elite”, and if it enhanced morale, scared the enemy and enabled better divisions to be easily identified then it was certainly worth while. It is easy to forget that all combatants in WWII were waging a morale and propaganda war alongside the real one. Unfortunately much post WWII history calls on the same propaganda based stories as the basis of historical fact. This then results in certain war stories, legends and myths become cemented over the years as unquestioned historical events.

    http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42/#Red Army Divisions Transferred West from June to July 1941

    Name   Originated from…   Assigned to in 22nd June…    Transfer to…
    58th Tank*     Far East        Far East          16th Army, Western Front, Nov 41
    60th Tank*   Far East         Far East         4th Separate Army, (in Volkhov area), Oct 41
    82nd Mech   T Baikal         T Baikal           5th Army, Western Front, Nov 41 1
    18th Mtn Cav   Cen Asia         Cen Asia         30th Army, Kalinin Front, Nov 41 1
    20th Mtn Cav   Cen Asia         Cen Asia       16th Army Western Front, Nov 41 1

    • Only started forming in March-April 1941
      Of these 14 divisions, two were small mountain cavalry divisions from Central Asia, while the three tank and mechanized divisions were very new and had very little (if anything) to do with Siberian personnel.
      The 58th and 60th tank divisions had only started forming in March-April 1941.
  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I still believe that Germany has too much power on the eastern front and Japan has too much power in China in your v5 setup. Check out this saved game and let me know how you would respond to this round 1 Axis opening. I moved Germany and Japan the way I wanted to, and I stacked Caucasus hard on R1, per your instructions. Note that even if you block Central Med sea zone, fly in British tacB from Gibraltar sea zone, and fly in British fighter from India to support Caucasus, battle calculator still says that on G2 Germany can take Caucasus with 100% odds and about $30 of profit. I think G2 will also be able to retake (and hold) Leningrad and trade West Russia. It is conceivable that Russia could retake Caucasus on R2 with its 5 inf, 1 art from Moscow, but after that, Russia is finished – Germany takes and holds Caucasus and trades West Russia again on G3, and either (a) takes Moscow on G4 or (b) builds infantry in Caucasus on G4 + planes in Berlin on G4 and then takes Moscow on G5. British have no starting transports left at start of B1, and any attack by Britain on Germany will take too long to make a difference – Germany can ignore most British attacks (using common sense to make some counter-attacks if, e.g., UK takes NW Europe with 1 inf remaining) in favor of just pressing on toward Moscow. USA cannot offer much support to Atlantic front because it will be busy in Pacific – if USA ignores Pacific or even splits 50/50 then Japan can change gears without too much trouble and start killing off remaining US Pacific fleet and then threaten Los Angeles.

    USA can win some naval battles in Pacific on US1, but again, USA has no transports remaining in Pacific at start of US1, so USA is very limited in how much damage it can cause to Japan’s core plans – USA cannot take control of Tokyo sea zone until at least USA4, and Japan can turtle for a while if necessary. Meanwhile, China is dead (if US attacks Kwangtung, then remaining Japanese forces can capture Szechuan on J2; if US does not attack Kwangtung, then combined Japanese forces can capture Szechuan on J2), Siberian Russian forces are dead, and Japan can press forward through China and Siberia to Moscow. USA can recapture money islands by US3 or US4, but that will not stop Axis from sacking Moscow.

    If Russia chooses not to stack Buryatia on R1, then instead of hitting Buryatia with 2 transports, Japan can hit Burma with 2 transports and significant warships, threatening India and also threatening to move directly to Persia to join up with Germans in Stalingrad.

    I do not see any way for Allies to win against this opening. Do you?

    SF 1941 Baron Alpha 05 test 1 UK1.png
    SanFran_1941_Alpha05Baron_Test1UK1.tsvg

  • '17 '16

    I will look further into it.
    Just for now, I would be mad as Germany to loose all my luftwaffe but 4 planes to get 1 Tank in Caucasus (average results). Then you can recapture it with Moscow units.

    For Germany, it is a Pyrrhic victory. I would wait another round and push forward elsewhere but not into Caucasus. Tanks and planes units are too precious. Such an all or nothing gambit, I do it on Russia only. Emptying almost all European TTs
    If all 3 UK’s planes are added in there. It is a total blast.

    You really put all you have on Asia. I’m not against the idea of moving 1 Infantry and 1 Artillery in Japan if it gives more opportunity in China. Maybe just moving 1 Artillery in Japan can be enough to delay a frontal assault on China’s Factory.

    I saw you made  illegal moves against US West Coast, you send 1 too many Fighter.
    And you have sent 3 planes in Philipines Islands, which imply that 2 Carriers have to move in that SZ: both Okinawa SZ Carriers cannot be split between Hawaii (to allow for the 1 Fg in WUS a landing spot) and a landing spot for 3 in Philipinnes SZ (and not considering the planes in Hawaii SZ which have to land on a Carrier within 2 SZs from there (keeping 1 Carrier in Okinawa).
    You also sent one too many TcB on Hawaii SZ?

    Don’t you think?

    There is too many illegal planes move on that one to clearly see a plausible result.

    Also, I just realized there is no TP in India SZ.
    I believe there should be 2, one in Anzac and the other with BB in India SZ.
    It will allow for a fiercer fight without the need for UK, which cannot do both homeland, Africa and India and ANZAC, to purchase another TP in PTO.
    What do you think on this TP?

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    So, I mostly agree with you about the Caucasus attack. If you look at the saved game, I did not attack Caucasus on G1 – instead I brought both transports to Ukraine, which is what guarantees that Germany can take Caucasus at a profit on G2.

    I don’t insist that going hard against Asia is the only viable strategy for Japan – my point is that the way you have got Eastern Europe and China set up right now allows Germany and Japan to cooperate to knock Russia out of the game very quickly. Since this is one of the main problems that everybody gripes about in the OOB editions, I think it’s very important that we avoid this particular failure mode.

    Also, I split my forces as Japan pretty evenly – 1 tp to Borneo, 1 tp to East Indies, 1 tp to Philippines, 3 planes to Philippines, and about 6 planes to US Pacific Fleet, with only 2 planes and 3 transports going to mainland Asia. If I had wanted to, I could have skipped the attack on East Indies and Pearl Harbor BB (hitting only the San Francisco fleet) in order to send something like 4 planes and 4 transports to mainland Asia, for an even heavier Asia strategy.

    I apologize for making illegal moves with the carriers; I assumed that tripleA would validate my moves for me. Evidently not. However, I had to crash-land two planes because of my illegal moves. I have a hard time believing that I could not have found a way to re-work the Pacific opening that would not work out at least as well for Japan. If you need to see it, I can show you, but you can probably work it out for yourself – just look and see what you would do as Japan if your primary goals were maintaining control of the Japanese sea zone and dropping as many troops as possible into Asia as quickly as possible.

    I think an additional British transport in India is potentially interesting, but also potentially overkill, and not my preferred method for solving what I see as a problem involving too many Japanese infantry starting in the mainland. The British start with transports in Canada, Scotland, Gold Coast, and Australia. Germany has good odds to pick off the Gold Coast transport if they want to, but that is expensive for Germany in terms of available subs – if Germany wants to kill the Gold Coast tp, then they have to either let the Canadian transport live (which means guarding France and NWE pretty heavily) or divert 3+ planes to attack the British navy (which means additional Russian planes will survive) or let the GIbraltar task force live (which means that Britain can rally in the Atlantic and build up a home fleet that will be a big problem by UK3 or so). I like giving Germany these tough choices. If Britain starts out with a tp in India, then they have 2 tps in the Pacific (India + ANZAC) even without the Gold Coast tp, and 2 tps is probably plenty given that they’re only producing 3 to 5 units a turn in the region, so sinking the Gold Coast tp is a less interesting target for Germany and Germany has a much easier time making decisions on G1. Plus, the OOB game starts with transports in India and Australia. I like that our starting position is a bit different.

    Moving an artillery back to Japan would be helpful, but there are limits to how well that will work because Japan can use air power as a substitute for artillery. It is also somewhat unrealistic – the Japanese army in China was moderately well-equipped, so it seems wrong to represent it as a huge stack of unsupported infantry. My preference would be to move 2 infantry back to Japan from Kiangsu, so that Manchuria is 3 inf, 1 ftr and Kiangsu is 3 inf, 1 art. The key thing in the Sino-Japanese war is boots on the ground – the more hit points the Japanese army has coming in, the harder it is for CHina to stop them from marching into Szechuan.

  • '17 '16

    @Argothair:

    So, I mostly agree with you about the Caucasus attack. If you look at the saved game, I did not attack Caucasus on G1 – instead I brought both transports to Ukraine, which is what guarantees that Germany can take Caucasus at a profit on G2.

    I don’t insist that going hard against Asia is the only viable strategy for Japan – my point is that the way you have got Eastern Europe and China set up right now allows Germany and Japan to cooperate to knock Russia out of the game very quickly. Since this is one of the main problems that everybody gripes about in the OOB editions, I think it’s very important that we avoid this particular failure mode.

    I made a G2 lucky attack on Caucasus, I will see how my 4 remaining planes can do it.
    (The AACalc told me it was a lost cause (UK send: 2 Fgs and 1 TcB) but I did it… and win?!?)

    I agree on Russia intent to be more interesting (hence more planes possibly according to G opening.) I’m not against adding more units in Vologda or Evenki or Yakut.
    I saw the issue with Finland and Karelia. I will think about it.

    @Argothair:

    I think an additional British transport in India is potentially interesting, but also potentially overkill, and not my preferred method for solving what I see as a problem involving too many Japanese infantry starting in the mainland. The British start with transports in Canada, Scotland, Gold Coast, and Australia. Germany has good odds to pick off the Gold Coast transport if they want to, but that is expensive for Germany in terms of available subs – if Germany wants to kill the Gold Coast tp, then they have to either let the Canadian transport live (which means guarding France and NWE pretty heavily) or divert 3+ planes to attack the British navy (which means additional Russian planes will survive) or let the GIbraltar task force live (which means that Britain can rally in the Atlantic and build up a home fleet that will be a big problem by UK3 or so). I like giving Germany these tough choices. If Britain starts out with a tp in India, then they have 2 tps in the Pacific (India + ANZAC) even without the Gold Coast tp, and 2 tps is probably plenty given that they’re only producing 3 to 5 units a turn in the region, so sinking the Gold Coast tp is a less interesting target for Germany and Germany has a much easier time making decisions on G1. Plus, the OOB game starts with transports in India and Australia. I like that our starting position is a bit different.

    Moving an artillery back to Japan would be helpful, but there are limits to how well that will work because Japan can use air power as a substitute for artillery. It is also somewhat unrealistic – the Japanese army in China was moderately well-equipped, so it seems wrong to represent it as a huge stack of unsupported infantry. My preference would be to move 2 infantry back to Japan from Kiangsu, so that Manchuria is 3 inf, 1 ftr and Kiangsu is 3 inf, 1 art. The key thing in the Sino-Japanese war is boots on the ground – the more hit points the Japanese army has coming in, the harder it is for CHina to stop them from marching into Szechuan.

    On UK’s TP… IDK still.
    It is hard to fight Japan on land and island without a ready additional TP.
    UK needs at least a 1 strike with 2 TPs to fight on East Indies or Borneo IMO.
    But for now I will not add it.

    Different starting position is compelling too.

    Ok for 2 Infantry in Japan, I prefer 1 artillery on China too (depicting armies is a good reason).

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    If you are sure about an extra tp for britain, let’s put it in Persian gulf or south Africa, not in India.

  • '17 '16

    Persian Gulf offer more opening strategies: either for fast reinforcement in Egypt or landing forces in East Indies.

    I’m not in any hurry to add it somewhere.

    I thought about India so it gives opening UK1 even more variability due to Fg+TcB attacking Battleship even more unpredictable results.
    IJN take a risk and blast all the SZ (60%) or it is a draw and both (15%) planes and BB are sunk but TP survives or (25%) both BB and TP make it through.
    It is kind of sweetening the pot for Japan, but it is in no way a piece of cake for them. It usually lost 1 plane and often 2. This restraint the other land attack support on J2. Sometimes, it seems rather better to wait for more naval fodder before launching the attack on UK’s Battleship.
    For me, it is an opportunity for high risk, high reward matter.
    And J1 can end the same way as you wanted: no additional TP in Indian SZ.

  • '17 '16

    I think an additional British transport in India is potentially interesting, but also potentially overkill, and not my preferred method for solving what I see as a problem involving too many Japanese infantry starting in the mainland. The British start with transports in Canada, Scotland, Gold Coast, and Australia. Germany has good odds to pick off the Gold Coast transport if they want to, but that is expensive for Germany in terms of available subs – if Germany wants to kill the Gold Coast tp, then they have to either let the Canadian transport live (which means guarding France and NWE pretty heavily) or divert 3+ planes to attack the British navy (which means additional Russian planes will survive) or let the Gibraltar task force live (which means that Britain can rally in the Atlantic and build up a home fleet that will be a big problem by UK3 or so). I like giving Germany these tough choices. If Britain starts out with a tp in India, then they have 2 tps in the Pacific (India + ANZAC) even without the Gold Coast tp, and 2 tps is probably plenty given that they’re only producing 3 to 5 units a turn in the region, so sinking the Gold Coast tp is a less interesting target for Germany and Germany has a much easier time making decisions on G1. Plus, the OOB game starts with transports in India and Australia. I like that our starting position is a bit different.

    There is a lot of parameters to calibrate.
    Just enough units in UK to make a Sea Lion possible.
    Not too much unit in Canada so Japan invading Alaska is not on the beginning too much to handle.
    Pacific ICs are draining around 15 IPCs or more to provide a correct opposition to Japan.
    India need a full land built up each turn but ANZAC can be useful to bring a few naval units (DDs or Subs).
    ANZAC ICs are a magnet because not adding any unit makes an easier target for Japan.
    Still, the 1 IPC unit is quite describing the utter limitation of Australian and New Zealand mobilization and population.

    If UK doesn’t capture Dakar IC in French West Africa (for USA purpose: reminding about Sierra Leone?), it left around 15 IPCs in UK to built up an attack on Germany.
    Is it enough ? IDK. I would have to try abandoning ANZAC to increase UK to see if it is enough to threat Germany and still defend India.
    Giving a set-up TP allows more actions in PTO without compromising the real effort which have to be done in Europe.
    From a strategic POV, maybe ANZAC is only a distraction (but playing with more warships is so cool!!!) because the real money is in France, NWE and Norway and disrupting Barbarossa remains the thing to do.

    Maybe the +1 PUs VTs bonus per turn for a given power and +1 PUs VTs bonus to share amongst alliance powers at the end of each round will solve the lack of money for UK. IDK.

    Still it is not made to correct the too many Infantry issue in mainland Asia.
    I rather try your way on that one and left 1 art and 3 Inf in Kiangsu while moving 2 Infantry on Japan for 6 Inf, 1 Art, 1 Tank.

    What do you think about striping 1 Infantry from Caroline Islands but adding 1 more Artillery for 3 Inf, 1 Art?

    It would increase the possibility to attack harder all airfields around (Hawaii, Midway, Wake) but make no difference on defense (that way it may even be possible that Borneo and East Indies get 1 less unit to keep this Artillery on a better use elsewhere. (More tactic involved than just flying 2 Infs in East Indies and Borneo.) Do IJN want to loose this attacking power unit to get the best defense?
    I would add a UK Destroyer in New Zealand SZ (so Cruiser cannot bombard if amphib J1).
    Seems more plausible they have a few naval defense and gives more defensive choice for ANZAC on UK1 NCM, since it is also out of position (unless New Guinea is captured).

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    I like all these ideas. That sounds correct. :-)

    +1 DD in New Zealand, swap 1 inf for 1 art in Carolines, move 2 inf from kiangsu to Tokyo, and maybe +1 inf to E. Canada. No extra transports.

    Britain can defend all colonies, or allow 1-2 colonies to become vulnerable to enable a serious assault on France/Norway. It’s a very interesting choice.

  • '17 '16

    @Argothair:

    I like all these ideas. That sounds correct. :-)

    +1 DD in New Zealand, swap 1 inf for 1 art in Carolines, move 2 inf from kiangsu to Tokyo, and maybe +1 inf to E. Canada. No extra transports.

    Britain can defend all colonies, or allow 1-2 colonies to become vulnerable to enable a serious assault on France/Norway. It’s a very interesting choice.

    With an additional Destroyer and 1 Infantry in ECanada, it worth the price of a TP.
    So UK can pay for it because we relieved it from buying these needed Infantry and Destroyer, anyway.
    (And for Germany, sinking Eastern Canada TP and UK’s TP makes more sense if you don’t want UK gets reinforcement.)


    I just think about a special way to integrate Solomon Islands into the mix.
    What about giving Japan 2 or 3 StBs in Caroline Islands, that would figure Japan ability to cut shipping and trading resources between USA and ANZAC?
    Controlling Solomon to move these 2 or 3  StBs allows to SBR all 3 ICs from the same spot.
    It has to be done in 2 steps.
    Capture J1, then moving StBs J2 in position then SBR, J3 SBR (Unless Triple A allows landing of StBs in just owned TT, IDK).

    To accelerate this action, I would even make it Japanese on set-up (but no unit on it), anyway it worth zero IPC and change nothing for income and starting PUs.
    So, end of J1 there will be 2 or 3 StBs there to make up to 6 Dmg pts to Allies on J2.
    It would be a special use (like allowing only Artillery or Infantry production on chinese IC + Western China impassable except Enveki for Soviet, etc.) in which these StBs can only be use for this purpose, until destroyed.)

    Even the Caroline Fighter can NCM J1 to land on Solomon (already Japanese controlled color on set-up) and defend StBs.
    I really would like to put 3 StBs in Caroline Islands, knowing that Japan will not sanely invested in them.
    And 3 StBs vs 3 ICs with damage cap of 2 pts each are weaker than a single StB against IC with 6 pts max out (each StB being AA gunned @1).

    It will be only J2 that SBR will start and almost any invasion will put an end to it.
    Hence explaining somehow all issues about why these Islands were invaded and fight over it early in PTO war of 1942.

    That way, all invasion of these atolls: Wake, Midway, Solomon will make sense for any player and give a few game hints about historical meaning of these islands.

  • '23 '22 '21 '20 '19 '18 '17 '16

    Maaaaybe? That sounds like an awful lot of special rules to help simulate a temporary, moderate-strength interference with US-ANZAC shipping lanes.

    What if we just started off with the Solomon Islands as Japanese and holding 1 Japanese StratB? The obvious play with that StratB is to bomb an ANZAC factory, and then after you do that, the logical place to land the bomber is the Solomon Islands. If you try to fly it to the center, then it would take a long time (J3?) to get that bomber in range of Moscow, so most players will choose to leave the StratB in place.

  • '17 '16

    @Argothair:

    Maaaaybe? That sounds like an awful lot of special rules to help simulate a temporary, moderate-strength interference with US-ANZAC shipping lanes.

    What if we just started off with the Solomon Islands as Japanese and holding 1 Japanese StratB? The obvious play with that StratB is to bomb an ANZAC factory, and then after you do that, the logical place to land the bomber is the Solomon Islands. If you try to fly it to the center, then it would take a long time (J3?) to get that bomber in range of Moscow, so most players will choose to leave the StratB in place.

    It is a big maybe, I know.
    Your idea is not very different than mine, only more freedom in yours.
    Mine is slightly anachronistic, yours is more and leave no room for Allies to block it on J1.
    But, your right about one thing.
    If we don’t put right away this StB in Solomon, there is no difference between moving it from Caroline to Solomon or to South East Asia.
    So, next round J2, StB will be more effective against India’s IC or even Chinese’s IC.
    From a game play, it seems better to move StBs elsewhere instead of Solomon then, I agree with you.
    Placing (against historical accuracy for late 1941) StB in Solomon right away will work better.

    As a proof of concept, would you agree to place two Japanese StBs in Solomon (which have to stay there) until destroyed?
    I prefer two StBs because of 3/6 odds of loosing 1 bomber against Anzac: 2 ICs and 1 Fg in New Zealand.
    It will be more of an annoyance then. And UK’s or US will probably take action to block this sooner than later.

    Another interesting thing about Barney made StB, is that you need boots on the ground to destroy them.
    Which means Solomons have to be captured to get rid of this annoyance.

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