@domanmacgee What they called “draft dodgers” was pretty much everyone making the Canadian contribution largely a naval affair.
Western Canada?
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Yes, Canada contributed a lot during WW2; especially compared to the size of it’s population. I read that 10% of the population served! That’s huge. Many Americans don’t even know that Canada had its own beach during D-Day and performed well! Good job Canada!
https://www.junobeach.org/canada-in-wwii/articles/d-day/
Roundel: Even though Canada could operate as it’s own independent country in this game (it was granted full independence in 1931), I think the reason for Canada getting it’s own roundel is NOT due to gameism reasons. I think it partly due to marketing reasons (Canadian patriotism which is great) as well as to add more eye candy to the board! Historically speaking, to some degree, the several Canadian divisions in Europe (was it 6 out of 8 Canadian divisions in Europe? Help me out Canadians), often were assigned to an Army Group commanded by a British Commander. Canada used a lot of equipment similar to what the UK then used. Today even, a lot of the same type of equipment and some weapons in service today are shared amongst the English speaking countries like our mechanized vehicles.
Anyways, I think Canada getting it’s own roundels serves a good balance between history and the gameism aspect of linking them up under the umbrella of the UK. I don’t know why one Canadian territory vs another might have a UK roundel or a Canadian one. That doesn’t makes sense to me.
Side bar…Interestingly enough to me, the concept of the “Army Group” as a military unit level (like company, battalion, regiment…ect), was invented during WW2 due to the sheer size of numbers in order to better improve command and control. Total Army strength was large enough during WW1, yet when that war started, the “Army” was the highest unit field command. If the 7 western invading German Armies were further organized into 3 Army Groups (lets, call them, Army Group North 2, Army Group Center 3, Army Group South 2), it might have resulted in better cooperation amongst them and the blunder of that occurred on 7-12 September 1914 might not have happened.
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@CWO:
- It’s good marketing. If you look at the rulebook, you’ll see that Wizards of the Coast’s Renton WA headquarters is responsible for both the US and Canada, and I’d like to think that they were perceptive enough to realize that their Canadian customers would be happy to see Canada get its own roundel in the big 1940 game. I certainly was.
Roundel: Even though Canada could operate as it’s own independent country in this game (it was granted full independence in 1931), I think the reason for Canada getting it’s own roundel is NOT due to gameism reasons. I think it partly due to marketing reasons (Canadian patriotism which is great) as well as to add more eye candy to the board!
I’m a Canadian boy myself. I was delighted to see the roundel at first, but I think that was followed by profound disappointment in learning that it was no more than a glorified, dressed-up UK roundel. :-(
So disappointed that I must have blocked out the memory - hence my asking if it had special rules.
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Zoooma,
Sorry man.
There are some good house rules out there for making Canada it’s own country.
Also, look up Young Grasshopper’s Halifax House Rules.
If Canada was it’s own country in the game (with UK increased values to make up for the loss, and a tad bit higher for Canada), then perhaps Canada could add some blockers (Pacific), or some can openers in Europe. It might be enough to balance the game enough to end the high bid that Allies players sometimes get. Definitely be interesting to try out a HR with Canada as another power.
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While I feel no particular urge to involve myself in the topic of Canadian (or for that matter, Dutch) roundels on the A&A game board, I think it’s still appropriate to correct some geographical misconceptions here. Specifically:
@CWO:
… and which is 1,657 times the size of Holland in terms of surface area. (To put it another way, Holland is a couple of hundred square kilometers smaller than Canada’s smallest province, P.E.I.).
The surface of Prince Edward Island is 5,660 km2. “Holland”, which has not existed as a single political entity since 1840, was a historical area of the Netherlands approximately contiguous with the current Dutch provinces of South Holland (2,818 km2) and North Holland (2,670 km2), for a total of 5,488 km2. So in that sense, the statement that Holland is smaller than PEI is correct. However, if you include the water area which Holland has and PEI strangely doesn’t have, at 7,494 km2 Holland is actually quite a bit larger than PEI. And the historical county of Holland was also larger as it included areas that are now part of different provinces, notably Brabant and Utrecht. The areas of the provinces vary slightly over the years anyway because sometimes their borders are changed as municipalities merge.
Quite apart from that, the larger and quite common misconception is of course, to equate Holland with the Netherlands, which at 41,543 is really a lot larger that PEI (and at 9,984,670 km2, Canada is “only” 240 times the size of that :-) ). The A&A map unfortunately adds to this misunderstanding by having an are labeled “Holland Belgium”. The aforementioned Dutch provinces of North and South Holland don’t even border Belgium, so an area “Holland Belgium” would be a non-contiguous oddity, with the remainder of the Netherlands in between and to the north and east. “Low Countries” might have been a better name, also because it can to some degree be considered to encompass Luxembourg as well.
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Zoooma,
Sorry man.
There are some good house rules out there for making Canada it’s own country.
Also, look up Young Grasshopper’s Halifax House Rules.
If Canada was it’s own country in the game (with UK increased values to make up for the loss, and a tad bit higher for Canada), then perhaps Canada could add some blockers (Pacific), or some can openers in Europe. It might be enough to balance the game enough to end the high bid that Allies players sometimes get. Definitely be interesting to try out a HR with Canada as another power.
I was hoping the roundels meant a separate economy, but not a separate power. Or a back up home base where UK can build if London falls.
Imagine a game where early Sea Lion is common but the game could still ,ast many turns and go either way.
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@Herr:
While I feel no particular urge to involve myself in the topic of Canadian (or for that matter, Dutch) roundels on the A&A game board, I think it’s still appropriate to correct some geographical misconceptions here. Specifically:
@CWO:
… and which is 1,657 times the size of Holland in terms of surface area. (To put it another way, Holland is a couple of hundred square kilometers smaller than Canada’s smallest province, P.E.I.).
The surface of Prince Edward Island is 5,660 km2. “Holland”, which has not existed as a single political entity since 1840, was a historical area of the Netherlands approximately contiguous with the current Dutch provinces of South Holland (2,818 km2) and North Holland (2,670 km2), for a total of 5,488 km2. So in that sense, the statement that Holland is smaller than PEI is correct. However, if you include the water area which Holland has and PEI strangely doesn’t have, at 7,494 km2 Holland is actually quite a bit larger than PEI. And the historical county of Holland was also larger as it included areas that are now part of different provinces, notably Brabant and Utrecht. The areas of the provinces vary slightly over the years anyway because sometimes their borders are changed as municipalities merge.
Quite apart from that, the larger and quite common misconception is of course, to equate Holland with the Netherlands, which at 41,543 is really a lot larger that PEI (and at 9,984,670 km2, Canada is “only” 240 times the size of that :-) ). The A&A map unfortunately adds to this misunderstanding by having an are labeled “Holland Belgium”. The aforementioned Dutch provinces of North and South Holland don’t even border Belgium, so an area “Holland Belgium” would be a non-contiguous oddity, with the remainder of the Netherlands in between and to the north and east. “Low Countries” might have been a better name, also because it can to some degree be considered to encompass Luxembourg as well.
Good points. I grabbed my surface area figures from Wikipedia a little too quickly.
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I’ve met a lot of people over the years from The Netherlands, and when asked where they’re from they invariably say “Holland”. I’m guessing it’s because all the Netherlanders I’ve met are from the Holland part, but still, it’s interesting that they always say “Holland” and not “The Netherlands”.
Then again, when asked, I always say I’m from “Alberta”, but that’s just because I don’t feel like it makes sense to say “Canada” when the country is larger than some continents. It doesn’t really narrow it down much.
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As a Southerner from the US, I just say “I’m from 'merica”… and when asked about foreigners, we always say “they took er jobs!”
Wait, is it still April Fools?
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I have to post this video link:
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I’ve met a lot of people over the years from The Netherlands, and when asked where they’re from they invariably say “Holland”. I’m guessing it’s because all the Netherlanders I’ve met are from the Holland part, but still, it’s interesting that they always say “Holland” and not “The Netherlands”.
I have to admit that we’re making things complicated. I live in Holland myself, but I know of people in other provinces who balk at being called “Hollanders”. To add to the confusion, the Netherlanders are mostly called the “Dutch” in English, a word that is etymologically related to “Deutsch”, which means “German” in German. So it all gets completely mixed up - for example, the “Pennsylvania Dutch”, were originally from Germany.
Then again, when asked, I always say I’m from “Alberta”, but that’s just because I don’t feel like it makes sense to say “Canada” when the country is larger than some continents. It doesn’t really narrow it down much.
But are you sure the people you talk to, know where Alberta is?
I have to post this video link:
:-D
And also…. sorry for completely derailing this topic.
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Alberta is right between BC and Saskatchewan where it always was. You can’t miss it. It’s bigger than most of the countries on Earth.
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there is quite a distinct GAME reason why this was “unsplit”.
When there is just 1 territory up there,
If Japan takes Alaska, tanks from the US can cross direct to attack.
If the US has units in West Canada, it can make Japan’s invasion position insecure.When there is only 1 west Canada;
Japan cant block the southern one and hide in the upper square and Alaska or land its planes up there in force (10+).When there are 2 squares of Western Canada, it can make the Japanese position very difficult to dislodge, because on the second turn of their invasion, they can put forces both on Alaska and in that upper, northern square where they can’t be attacked amphibiously. Also, any tanks on Alaska can drive onto the other mapboard unblockably because it is much harder for the US to block/strike both squares, esp. just after the USA got invaded. At that point, Germany lands on top of the hidden, protected square with its airforce and now they are unstoppable and can occupy all of America’s attention and $$ (Operation Hollywood).
I think this was done to keep America from having such a hard time of pushing Japan out of that area and not giving Japan an unthreatened backfield that they can hide in to prevent an American counterattack.
Most Japan invasions of USA begin by splitting your forces both land and sea to block all those squares that the USA wants to cross through to strike your forces, then flying your airforce over to protect your beachhead. Larry may have seen how abusive it is to give Japan an LZ that the US has such problems hitting.
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Alberta is right between BC and Saskatchewan where it always was. You can’t miss it. It’s bigger than most of the countries on Earth.
Hahaha. A big fist-bump from across the border, neighbour. :lol:
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there is quite a distinct GAME reason why this was “unsplit”.
When there is just 1 territory up there,
If Japan takes Alaska, tanks from the US can cross direct to attack.
If the US has units in West Canada, it can make Japan’s invasion position insecure.When there is only 1 west Canada;
Japan cant block the southern one and hide in the upper square and Alaska or land its planes up there in force (10+).When there are 2 squares of Western Canada, it can make the Japanese position very difficult to dislodge, because on the second turn of their invasion, they can put forces both on Alaska and in that upper, northern square where they can’t be attacked amphibiously. Also, any tanks on Alaska can drive onto the other mapboard unblockably because it is much harder for the US to block/strike both squares, esp. just after the USA got invaded. At that point, Germany lands on top of the hidden, protected square with its airforce and now they are unstoppable and can occupy all of America’s attention and $$ (Operation Hollywood).
I think this was done to keep America from having such a hard time of pushing Japan out of that area and not giving Japan an unthreatened backfield that they can hide in to prevent an American counterattack.
Most Japan invasions of USA begin by splitting your forces both land and sea to block all those squares that the USA wants to cross through to strike your forces, then flying your airforce over to protect your beachhead. Larry may have seen how abusive it is to give Japan an LZ that the US has such problems hitting.
Excellent breakdown, I can see the logic now. But I do wonder if an independent Canadian economy (around 12+ IPC with a national objective or two) and turn would mitigate this Axis advantage. Granted the Canadians would not be able to repel a large Japanese landing force but they could dent it for the US. This dovetails nicely with the thread in House Rules that integrates Canada.
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There are many novel ideas
Make UK Pac an Grey ANZAC team and merge PAC+ZAC switching tan units to grey.
remedies the too small economy problem, and the too few factories problem, making ANZAC a real power.
Break Canada (11$? about 7 units?) off of UK Atl and add it to ANZAC, switching tan units to grey.
Same, but now CANZAC can place in Atlantic and taking Brazil for ANZAC is much more functional
Play Both UK’s as one power instead
(this is pretty rough since they can put 10 units on india but its a fun idea, maybe needs some offsetting Vichy rule or something to make it less abusive.)
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Alberta is right between BC and Saskatchewan where it always was. You can’t miss it. It’s bigger than most of the countries on Earth.
Hahaha. A big fist-bump from across the border, neighbour. :lol:
Frankly, without you telling me that and/or me checking a map, I wouldn’t have been sure at all about Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I knew they were there, but not which one was which. A&A again wasn’t very helpful there, by merging them. So thank you - I guess I learnt a bit about geography myself.
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there is quite a distinct GAME reason why this was “unsplit”.� �
I tried Operation Hollywood in the 1st edition OOB rules. I spent hours planning the perfect assault - I even had Germany invade Eastern Canada from Gibraltar turn 2. I forget why - probably just to force USA from sending everything West. Edit - I think this was also intended to fake Sea Lion, not as a trick, but to stifle the Allied options.
I captured BC to secure a landing strip for my air, planning to attack California the following turn. USA responded cleverly by pulling everything back to the Midwest. This way the big battle for California would be his counter-attack, meaning my planes are not involved. I couldn’t use my planes to wipe out the Midwest because I didn’t have the range. :(
That was the last OOB game we played. My impression was that Operation Hollywood was a major commitment for the Axis but not effective. I could keep USA busy for a couple turns, but at the cost of the war effort.
This was back when I could invade Canada without declaring war on America! Now that this brings USA into the war, it’s very hard for me to imagine Hollywood to bea game breaking strategy. Do you think this is abusive from a game-winning perspective, or simply a strategy that is considered distasteful and undesirable?
@Herr:
But are you sure the people you talk to, know where Alberta is?
Alberta is Canada’s closest equivalent of Texas. The very idea that not everyone knows about Alberta is borderline offensive. :-D
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Alberta is Canada’s closest equivalent of Texas. The very idea that not everyone knows about Alberta is borderline offensive.
Quote from the movie Rocketship X-M:
Harry: From this distance it would only appear a mere speck.
Major Corrigan: A mere speck? Texas a mere speck? -
“That was the last OOB game we played. My impression was that Operation Hollywood was a major commitment for the Axis but not effective. I could keep USA busy for a couple turns, but at the cost of the war effort.”
Bingo, agree.
I call these 4 turn all-in plans “gambits” or “stratagems”. My partner dave usually comes up with them, I come up with the silly names.
Axis;
Operation Hollywood (failed but fun J3)
Operation Dopple Seelowe (Double Sealion, only works when they don’t taranto)
Operation Nenestia Shuttle (hail mary Sea Lion play option audible –-shifts to russia)
Operation Chief Wampum’s Pass at Peace J3 (to ceylon, depends on whether they screen you or not)
Operation Chief Wampum’s Pass at Peace J4 (Kill America First)
Operation Everything (I forget how this one goes but maphead dave always beats me with it)
Operation Crussia (obvious)
Operation Dark Skies (stolen)Allies;
Operation Northlock/Southlock (secret!)
Operation Five Spicy Allied Powers (depends on turn Japan attacks)
Operation Allied Dark Skies (hehe)
Operation Taranto Lite (working on it)I love telling everyone that the name of my new stratagem is Operation Crussia. There is an actual Operation Crussia, but I don’t tell them that when I use it. I only tell them its Operation Crussia when my plan involves ignoring Russia completely…if you name the strategy “Crussia” and even get some printed papers made up and folders and leave these lying around while you go to the bathroom, your opponents may not understand why you are invading the US…
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@Herr:
Alberta is right between BC and Saskatchewan where it always was. You can’t miss it. It’s bigger than most of the countries on Earth.
Hahaha. A big fist-bump from across the border, neighbour. :lol:
Frankly, without you telling me that and/or me checking a map, I wouldn’t have been sure at all about Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba. I knew they were there, but not which one was which. A&A again wasn’t very helpful there, by merging them. So thank you - I guess I learnt a bit about geography myself.
No worries. It’s always great to learn more geography, and don’t feel bad if you don’t know much about Alberta: Even though it’s larger than France it only has four million people, i.e. a smaller population than Toronto.
In my travels, one other thing I’ve noticed about people from The Netherlands is that they speak better English than 90% of Canadians and Americans. I’m not sure why that is.
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