GW36 Italian Strategy - Operazione Chiave (Operation Key).

[Jinx1527]

@Whitshadw:

I agree with Jinx, I tend to Lend lease 1 unit to Spain with Italy for the first round to establish a firm control in Spain and save the rest so about a Artillery to Spain and keep the other 3 IPP then the next turn I have 10 IPP so I build a transport and also save the 2 IPP for the following turn to which I add a second transport … After 3 round Italy has 2 Transports and Starts building a Light Carrier as well as ground units I tend to time my attack with Germanys swoop into France and pounce on Gibraltar. Clean and flush out the med and see what nations are Vichy and which are free French … from there I build 1 Militia a turn in Gibraltar while reinforcing it with Ground units Eventually I send a AA over build a bunker and play the Come get me game with Italy while Germany is doing there work.

Yeah, exactly.
America is a little further from Gibraltar in G36 then G40, so a person has a little time to steel themselves for the attack. If the Americans head there vs. Cornwall (England), it becomes a little more threatening, projecting their threat all up and down the coast. But at least the Med is free.

[Rank Carcass]

@Jinx1527:

@Whitshadw:

I agree with Jinx, I tend to Lend lease 1 unit to Spain with Italy for the first round to establish a firm control in Spain and save the rest so about a Artillery to Spain and keep the other 3 IPP then the next turn I have 10 IPP so I build a transport and also save the 2 IPP for the following turn to which I add a second transport … After 3 round Italy has 2 Transports and Starts building a Light Carrier as well as ground units I tend to time my attack with Germanys swoop into France and pounce on Gibraltar. Clean and flush out the med and see what nations are Vichy and which are free French … from there I build 1 Militia a turn in Gibraltar while reinforcing it with Ground units Eventually I send a AA over build a bunker and play the Come get me game with Italy while Germany is doing there work.

Yeah, exactly.
America is a little further from Gibraltar in G36 then G40, so a person has a little time to steel themselves for the attack. If the Americans head there vs. Cornwall (England), it becomes a little more threatening, projecting their threat all up and down the coast. But at least the Med is free.

Agree with all of this. Typically I use Italian forces from africa via transport, For a fast reinforcement of Gibraltar. I  then build land units in Italy to gobble up all the little IPP teritorries around the medd. Balkans are for Germany only due to victory point. Next Italy will either build a minor factory in north africa, and crush the sueze. Or build a minor factory in Gibraltar. Depending upon Allied threat projection. This Gibraltar factory attracts attention to Gibraltar but allows the production of a unit and militia each turn, for defense or transport pickup to project Italian threat of landing into the Atlantic Ocean: either London, west Africa or South America. Especially if germany owns Marsailles and its shipyard rather than vichy. Germany can then place any ship in the medd. With Italy.
This can allow for drawing forces south and easing german naval movement/defense in the north Atlantic

[Rank Carcass]

Oops. Should have stated. Allow vichy to happen to disrupt the French navy then attack its capital with Germany. Italy can also use the Gibraltar factory to either reinforce or attack in Spain if required. And German lend lease to Italy is always helpful for a turn or 2 early on so Italy can get an edge in the medd.

[General 6 Stars]

:-o

[Whitshadw]

@Rank:

@Jinx1527:

@Whitshadw:

I agree with Jinx, I tend to Lend lease 1 unit to Spain with Italy for the first round to establish a firm control in Spain and save the rest so about a Artillery to Spain and keep the other 3 IPP then the next turn I have 10 IPP so I build a transport and also save the 2 IPP for the following turn to which I add a second transport … After 3 round Italy has 2 Transports and Starts building a Light Carrier as well as ground units I tend to time my attack with Germanys swoop into France and pounce on Gibraltar. Clean and flush out the med and see what nations are Vichy and which are free French … from there I build 1 Militia a turn in Gibraltar while reinforcing it with Ground units Eventually I send a AA over build a bunker and play the Come get me game with Italy while Germany is doing there work.

Yeah, exactly.
America is a little further from Gibraltar in G36 then G40, so a person has a little time to steel themselves for the attack. If the Americans head there vs. Cornwall (England), it becomes a little more threatening, projecting their threat all up and down the coast. But at least the Med is free.

Agree with all of this. Typically I use Italian forces from africa via transport, For a fast reinforcement of Gibraltar. I  then build land units in Italy to gobble up all the little IPP teritorries around the medd. Balkans are for Germany only due to victory point. Next Italy will either build a minor factory in north africa, and crush the sueze. Or build a minor factory in Gibraltar. Depending upon Allied threat projection. This Gibraltar factory attracts attention to Gibraltar but allows the production of a unit and militia each turn, for defense or transport pickup to project Italian threat of landing into the Atlantic Ocean: either London, west Africa or South America. Especially if germany owns Marsailles and its shipyard rather than vichy. Germany can then place any ship in the medd. With Italy.
This can allow for drawing forces south and easing german naval movement/defense in the north Atlantic

Sounds like a fun strat but with building Militia now in Gibraltar once you erect a factory at that location you can no longer build Militia at that location, pg.53 "  Militia can be built at a non-factory site" once that factory pops up. Militia for that location can no longer be placed

[Rank Carcass]

Interesting Whitshadw!
I have reviewed the rules. Version 1.2 both page 51 militia and page 53 infantry (militia). States that they can be built in a non factory site, and do not require a factory. But do not say a factory eliminates their placement there. Gibraltar a captured land zone, maximum of 1 militia can be placed.
A minor factory can produce 1unit so long as the ports and or rail conects it to the major factory at home. (Improved factories is an asset 3 units and no need for militia)

However national reference sheets do state on the build chart for militia: Build in non-factory site. This may be HBG editor issues or you are correct. We had simply taken this as a reminder that factory was not required to build.
Italy turin, germany stettin, soviet leningrad, anzac sydney, great Britain Liverpool, london, south africa and ottowa finally US San Francisco.
This may be our source of confusion, all of these locations from the 1936 setups have militia in factory landzones. And japan has a bonus of building militia on the home island and okinawa for 1IPP each, if usa has 5 transports in the Pacific.

Never even considered the presence of a factory as a block to build militia. Our group of 6 is fairly good at finding technicalities to spoke each other’s tires, amazed this never came up! Not sure if this is a house rule on our part.  I’ll need to search global faq…

[Munck]

It makes very little sense that a factory removes the possibility to place Militia in a territory.

can be built <– it does not say must be built…

[Whitshadw]

@Munck:

It makes very little sense that a factory removes the possibility to place Militia in a territory.

can be built <– it does not say must be built…

it says neither it says “ï‚· Militia do not require a factory. The number of militia you may place in a zone is equal to the zone’s point value with a minimum of one militia per zone (even if the zone has no point value).  A captured land zone is always restricted to one militia per turn” on page-51 the first part states that factories are not required to build militia.

the second part sits on page-53 Infantry (Militia): The militia unit represents various types of local or immobile defense forces.  These are often conscripted and poorly trained units such garrison armies, colonial militias and land similar units.  Militia can be built at a non-factory site.  Most Militia cannot move.  Militia have an Attack value of “1” in the rare case that they can be moved to Attack.

in the center of the paragraph it states that " Militia can be built at a non-factory site."

finally if you look at every single nations build chart under Militia it states “Build in non-factory site”  basically telling you not to build in a factory location.

[Chris_Henry]

Great topic and thread. I’ll preface by saying I have not yet had the opportunity to play my game just yet, work gets in the way, and having someplace to keep the awesome, hulking map, set up for extended periods of time alludes us.

I’ve done my best to familiarize myself with the game and rules though.

Point here as it relates to this topic, is that the Spanish Civil War really does play into this strategy a lot as well when you think of it. If the goal for Italy/Mediterranean Axis is Gibraltar, doesn’t making sure the Nationalists win the Spanish Civil War take on a whole great importance? As you say in your original post, the amphibious attacking is brutally costly. Activation and alignment of an Axis Spain though would alleviate the need for an amphibious assault on the Rock.

I’m sure that has not alluded you or anyone else here, that’s not my point. The point was that when discussing Italian objectives being Gibraltar, I think you need to add the Spanish Civil War into the wider spectrum of steps to attaining that goal.

That just adds to the fun and intrigue of the game for me. Thinking that one thing, maybe seemingly not connected to an action, truly is in the grander scheme of strategy!

[Whitshadw]

@Chris_Henry:

Great topic and thread. I’ll preface by saying I have not yet had the opportunity to play my game just yet, work gets in the way, and having someplace to keep the awesome, hulking map, set up for extended periods of time alludes us.

I’ve done my best to familiarize myself with the game and rules though.

Point here as it relates to this topic, is that the Spanish Civil War really does play into this strategy a lot as well when you think of it. If the goal for Italy/Mediterranean Axis is Gibraltar, doesn’t making sure the Nationalists win the Spanish Civil War take on a whole great importance? As you say in your original post, the amphibious attacking is brutally costly. Activation and alignment of an Axis Spain though would alleviate the need for an amphibious assault on the Rock.

I’m sure that has not alluded you or anyone else here, that’s not my point. The point was that when discussing Italian objectives being Gibraltar, I think you need to add the Spanish Civil War into the wider spectrum of steps to attaining that goal.

That just adds to the fun and intrigue of the game for me. Thinking that one thing, maybe seemingly not connected to an action, truly is in the grander scheme of strategy!

HBG has added " Spanish Civil War" expansion that further " excuse my pun" Expands on the war it self. For example if on the German players turn they roll a specific number on the random events chart one of the abilities is that the Nationals are able to invade Gibraltar it self. Very fun very interesting but ultimately it always boils down to DICE right?  I do hope you are able to play the game it is absolutely fun.

[Chris_Henry]

@Whitshadw:

HBG has added " Spanish Civil War" expansion that further " excuse my pun" Expands on the war it self. For example if on the German players turn they roll a specific number on the random events chart one of the abilities is that the Nationals are able to invade Gibraltar it self. Very fun very interesting but ultimately it always boils down to DICE right?  I do hope you are able to play the game it is absolutely fun.

Yes, that’s right, I forgot all about those random events in the new Spanish Civil War Expansion! Even more intrigue to it! But also very true, the dice giveth and taketh away.

Definitely hope to play soon! We’re working on some plywood and felt in order to actually fit it somewhere. And again, just got to find somewhere to keep it set up long periods of time! Once work quiets down a bit, I hope to push the issue a bit more though!

[118karate]

are we talking about global 1936 or 1939 which gamemode

[General 6 Stars]

Oh heaven for bid. It’s the 36 almighty game .

[Jinx1527]

@SS:

Oh heaven for bid. It’s the 36 almighty game .

Seriously SS.
You got a burr up your backside over this game. Just let it be.
Why do you hate it?

Also, if you dislike it so much, why do you even frequent this message board? I really don’t understand.  :?

That being said, much of your posts; apart from your odd remarks, can actually be quite insightful and informative.

[General 6 Stars]

OK Jimx.

My beef with this game is not the great map or people that play it.

It has to do with the map coming out and being told the 39 rules will be out in a month. ( also my group of 12 people will not play 36 do to 75 pages of rules, to many railroads and victory conditions with less value territories. Plus another group I talk to all the time will not play it and also some game designers I know. But thats all are opinions ). So be it.

First off don’t come out with a game unless you have everything ready that goes with map. For me they came out with this game so they could get people to buy more expansion sets and keep coming out with them for the 3 different starting years for playing map.
Fine, that’s the way they make money without designing new maps. Smart.

Then they say we will not answer any questions that pertain to 36 map, rules and setups on this site.
Now when you go to there site they don’t answer any questions. BS .

Now people are coming here to site to get there questions answered for 36 game. Thats fine. But I feel people should make at least 1 donation to site for all the awesome info you get from this site. Plus other people for other games and the Triple A players too. IMO.

IL is coming out with his new game and thats been taking a few years to perfect it so he doesn’t get jammed with a 1000 questions pertaining to game. That’s the correct way to do it. Granted you still will get a few questions on game.

So Seriously, I will try my hardest not to make anymore comments towards this 36 game. HBG does make great pieces and so but don’t BS me.

I will not reply to any comments to this message.   :-)

[Jinx1527]

@Chris_Henry:

Great topic and thread. I’ll preface by saying I have not yet had the opportunity to play my game just yet, work gets in the way, and having someplace to keep the awesome, hulking map, set up for extended periods of time alludes us.

I’ve done my best to familiarize myself with the game and rules though.

Point here as it relates to this topic, is that the Spanish Civil War really does play into this strategy a lot as well when you think of it. If the goal for Italy/Mediterranean Axis is Gibraltar, doesn’t making sure the Nationalists win the Spanish Civil War take on a whole great importance? As you say in your original post, the amphibious attacking is brutally costly. Activation and alignment of an Axis Spain though would alleviate the need for an amphibious assault on the Rock.

I’m sure that has not alluded you or anyone else here, that’s not my point. The point was that when discussing Italian objectives being Gibraltar, I think you need to add the Spanish Civil War into the wider spectrum of steps to attaining that goal.

That just adds to the fun and intrigue of the game for me. Thinking that one thing, maybe seemingly not connected to an action, truly is in the grander scheme of strategy!

I’ve been thinking about what you wrote Chris_Henry, and I think you pose a really good thought!

From the Italian perspective, the Nationalists should win the Spanish Civil War. But, should the Nationalists win the Civil War before Germany is at war with the Soviets, or win postpone winning it until after.

If Nationalists win the CW before Barbarossa begins; Spain is secure from Allied invasion, barring Allied payment of a decent penalty. If Spain is relatively secure from invasion: any attack on Gibraltar must be with a deadly Amphibious Assault.

If the Nationalists win the CW after Barbarossa begins; they Align to Germany, and now there are three different territories in which Allies can put a foothold, and therefore the Axis must protect to greater or lesser degree.

One foothold, Leon-Castille is the best American foothold in Europe. Leon-Castille is within reach of American Naval Transports, and as a cherry on top, it also has a Port, that means it becomes the primary shuttle point to drop off American troops into Europe. From Washington & New York to Leon-Castille. The Atlantic Railway.

From Leon-Castille the Allies can go south into the plains of Extremadura, from there to Gibraltar without amphibious assaults, from there…well…anywhere.
From Leon-Castille the Allies can go east to Asturia-Vasconia and then into France.

Its such a tempting target for the Allies that if the Italian Operation Key manages to fortify in Gibraltar, then it is almost worth it for the Americans to to declare war against Nationalist Spain, pay the penalty, and invade.

Neutral Nationalist Spain is weak and cannot stop the Americans invading.
Axis Nationalist Spain, with its Madrid Factory and leftovers from the CW, has just enough time to fortify itself a little. It also gives 2 additional IPP to Germany.

It depends on the mentality of the Allies, will they pay a penalty of cash, or a penalty of blood. The Atlantic Railway, against an Axis Spain or Neutral Spain, or the Normandy Landing.

[Chris_Henry]

Wow, missed your response to me from before Jinx1527!

That’s a very good point re winning the SCW before/after Germany is at war. That also plays a large part into the effectiveness of planning. My points towards having a Nationalist Spain so that Italian troops don’t have to amphibiously assault Gibraltar, can also be turned on it’s head: The Allies can then just invade Nationalist Spain, and then retake Gibraltar, also without having to amphibiously assault it! Though, they’d still need to amphibiously assault somewhere on the Spanish mainland as well, and you’re very much correct, Leon-Castille is a prime target. Nationalist Spain would definitely need to beef up defenses on the Atlantic coast.

All very interesting, each part really plays into another part as well in this particular strategy you discuss. I guess you’d need to weigh out what’s more important/effective: 1) Having a Nationalist Spain enter the war, giving Italian troops overland access to Gibraltar, but thus opening up Spain to Allied invasion/widening the defensive window for the Axis or 2) Keep a Nationalist Spain neutral, thus closing easier access to Allied forces to invade mainland Europe, but in the process making an invasion of Gibraltar all the more unlikely again by amphibious assault.

My initial gut response leans with option one: having an activated Nationalist Spain. I think this would, overall, greatly support the Italians more than it would detriment the Axis as a whole. While Spain is now open to assault without Allied penalty, there’s still going to be Spanish troops there to make amphibious landings costly. All the while you’ve stopped, at least for a time, the flow of Allied reinforcement of North Africa/Mediterranean by holding Gibraltar, and/or, depending on how well Italy is doing, opening up the Atlantic to possible Italian interference, if their fleets can comfortably leave the Med.