@SuperbattleshipYamato hard to argue against any of this really. The IJN was so far gone by this point in the war that there’s not really much they could have done to salvage their situation one way or another. The bit about the allies not having many LSTs in general is something I never knew before though.
Barbarossa
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I would have tricked Stalin into a joint attack on Turkey and the middle east helping out Rommel and removing the Brits from the middle east… then while the Soviets were getting beaten by Turkey… i would conclude a treaty with them ( Turkey) and attack the entire eastern front while getting Turkey to fight with me. This would have thrown the Soviets off balance.
Then Rommel would reach Mosul and attack the caucasus from the south with Turkish help and i would have the oil in 1941.
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@Imperious:
I would have tricked Stalin into a joint attack on Turkey and the middle east helping out Rommel and removing the Brits from the middle east… then while the Soviets were getting beaten by Turkey… i would conclude a treaty with them ( Turkey) and attack the entire eastern front while getting Turkey to fight with me. This would have thrown the Soviets off balance.
Then Rommel would reach Mosul and attack the caucasus from the south with Turkish help and i would have the oil in 1941.
like stalin was that stupid. stalin and hitler hated each other and there were plans for a major russian adttack to break the treaty. communists and facists can’t work together on anything.
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This is not true at all. Discussion in Dec 1940 were in initial stages of progress, however Stalin did not want to have any agreements of the sort unless Germany renounced any and all ties to Finland. Stalin claimed it was in his sphere of influence but Hitler didnt like the fact that it might have also influenced Sweden (by new diplomatic pressures by the Kremlin) to stop Iron Ore shipments to the Reich.
Stalin was quite interested in Persia and getting a natural warm water port in Europe. That is a historical Russian objective since modern times and Turkey was but one factor in its way. Stalin mistrusted the British more than Hitler and more than anybody. He loathed Churchill and considered them duplicitous.
If Stalin was smart he would have allowed and accepted the diplomatic correspondence coming from British and American Intelligence warning Stalin of inpending German aggression. He feared that if he was too mobilize he would make the same mistake as the Czar had done in 1914 and ordered full mobilization which forced the Kaisers decision to also mobilize and begin the chain that started WW1. Stalin did not want to be provoked into a general war with Germany at this time. Thats why they basically got chumped in the first 2 weeks of the campaign. Stalin didnt listen and he was Stupid at times.
Of course Zhukov ordered a study of a preemtive attack on the Reich but this was rejected out right by Stalin for the time being. In my opinion he was eventually preparing for such a conclusion, but if those talks with Von Ribbentropp went well and Germany released Finland to “the wolves” then i feel Stalin would have been much more receptive to co-axis cooperation in the middle east.
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If anybody cares, the 22nd was the 66th anniversary of Barbarossa.
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POP QUIZ!
What was Operation Barbarossa named after?
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Operation winterstorm. (Attack againt moscow 10-02-41)
AL.
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It was called Operation Typhon if im not mistaken
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Operation Winter Storm was an attack on Stalingrad, and Typhoon was the Soviet Defense and Counter attack around Moscow.
I was more referring to what “Barbarossa” meant…
GG
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like stalin was that stupid. stalin and hitler hated each other and there were plans for a major russian adttack to break the treaty. communists and facists can’t work together on anything.
Don’t forget that the Nazi party’s official title was, “National Socialist German Workers’ Party”.
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operation barbarossa was in the honor of frederik barbarossa a german king of 12th century.
About Operation Typhoon. Imperious Leader is right.
About Operation Winter storm. You’re right.AL.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Typhoon
Sorry, I was mistaken in assuming Imperious was referring to Barbarossa as Typhoon… And you are correct!
GG
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The Start date is the clue.
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I agree with all of IL’s points. I like many of you thikn that Hilter’s persecution of local the populace hurt him more than it helped him innumerally. However, as I recall Hitler split his forces into three spearheads, one to the south, one to the north, one for moscow. Perhaps eliminating one of those spearheads to bolster the other two and he would have gone the extra 20 miles to Moscow.
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Hmmm… I just learned that the German Army’s invading the Soviet Union where blessed by the Pope. Apparently, Barbarossa was seen as a crusade against communism, hence the name, Barbarossa. Fighting fire with fire it seems.
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Yes it was a crusade. Thats how the Germans were able to recruit so many units from foreign nations for the opportunity to fight communism even from nations she conquered.
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@Imperious:
Yes it was a crusade. Thats how the Germans were able to recruit so many units from foreign nations for the opportunity to fight communism even from nations she conquered.
they should da known facism is worst.
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They were promised representation under the new order. The fear of communism since 1918 over much of Europe was a much more uncertain prospect. At least Fascism had a free market system while its labor system was organized under guilds
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Fascism was most definently the lesser of the two evils.
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yep true.
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I tend to see them as being as bad as each other.
In Britain Communist Union leaders organized strikes and urged members to help the German invasion if it came, because at the time the Germans and Soviets were allies. After Barbarossa began they critisised the British government for not doing enough to fight Hitler!
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