Russian Basics

[newpaintbrush]

Combat move:  3 infantry and 1 fighter from Karelia, and 1 fighter from Russia to Belorussia.  All remaining units that can attack West Russia do so.

Noncombat move:  Move the Russian sub to join the UK battleship and transport off the northwestern coast of the United Kingdom, move 2 infantry from Kazakh to Caucasus, 2 infantry from Novosibirsk to Russia, 2 infantry from Yakut to Novosibirsk, 2 infantry from Soviet Far East to Yakut, 2 infantry from Burytia to Yakut, fly 2 fighters to Russia.

Placement:  4 infantry in Russia, 4 infantry in Caucasus.

– cut and pasted from my new article for Russia

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I don’t think there is a German counter.  Not because I think I’m really clever as Russia.  Because I thought for a long time about how to counter this move with Germany, and I couldn’t come up with anything good.

[Guest]

The counter is a German Eastern stack, along with evacuating Norway, taking Karelia, and re-taking Belo.  Germany ends up even in Europe, has all 6 FIGs still alive, and an extra ARM and ART over a WR/Ukr open.

It invites a German “lurch” offensive against Russia, as well as a 3 prong offensive on Russia that potentially includes German units from Persia by the mid game

[DarthMaximus]

Switch has one possible counter.

Another (if we use the trn-BB move to sz 16 per the tank dash) is to stack Ukr with:

9 inf, 1 rt, 6 arm and 2-3 ftrs
(if Russia has 15 inf or less in range of Ukr)
For Russia to have 15 inf they can only lose 1 inf Belo and 2 inf in Wrus on R1.

Germany should buy at least 2 arm, but 3-5 could work as well  (although 5 is little light on inf for me)

With 2 G ftrs, Russia can counter the Ukr stack but in turn get countered by G2 and Russia’s offensive power is wiped out.
With 3 ftrs Russia should lose the counter on R2.

Germany could have (7 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm buy):

Kar:  1 inf
EE:  ~4 inf
Ger:  5 inf, 3 arm
SE:  2 inf, 1 rt
WE:  ~3 inf, 3-4 ftrs
Balk: 1 rt:
Ukr:  9 inf, 1 rt, 6 arm, 2-3 ftrs
land the bom somewhere
Bid is used to take Egy

You could even land the J ftr from Fic in Ukr

I’m not saying it is perfect or would work, but it is certainly something to consider.  Shortly after this Ger pulls out of WE and continues the lurch.  B/c it is easier to defend, Germany just needs to buy enough tanks to make sure they hold a slight adv in Def pts vs. Russian Off pts in Ukr.  And again if Russia attacks on R2 or R3, they get hit on the counter and are eliminated as an offensive threat just as Japan should be getting rolling in Asia.

Well that is one possible theory.  :-)

If Russia takes 2 losses in Belo and 3 Wrus, I don’t think you even need the trn from sz 14, but I’d have to run the numbers to be sure.
Which could free you up to do Egy a bit heavier or take Gib with the BB-trn.

[Guest]

The other point with the lurch…

Once Germany has established their position in Ukraine, Russia faces a choice… defend Caucuses or defend West Russia.  They can’t hold both indefinitely unless UK and USA are pouring every ounce of strength into europe (which of course leaves Japan free to sweep in through the back door).  With 2 consecutive rounds of Germany that has a full luftwaffe and is buying ARM in 2-4 quantities plus INF every turn, and has a Med Fleet, Russia has to abandon either WR or Caucuses, which allows Germany to lurch forward once again.  To counter either one, means draining Russia, and Germany WILL be able to do a follow up attack in either territory, effectively wiping Russia out.  That would be about turn 5 in the above scenario…  right about the time that Japan has 2 movements of troops in Novo (call it 6-10 INF, 1 ART, 1-3 ARM backed up by 2-5 FIGs and a BOM).

[DarthMaximus]

Yeah, with the early move, if it is there (regardless of how Russia opens), there is that period of 3-4 turns where UK/US need to land in Afr, kill the Baltic and Med Fleets and then land in Nor.

At that point if it is rd 4 or so WE becomes expendable and advantageous for Ger to abandon since you actually want the UK and US in WE instead of Kar, if you can gain the Eastern position of Ukr and then either Cauc or Wrus.

Again this can happen no matter how Russia opens but it is why I put such a high priority on Ukr (no matter what side I am) early.

Unrelated to this topic of the Russian open, I think Ger should really be starting to make the lurch in rds 3-6 (earlier is great if there is an opening), but if you start to wait too long the Allies will of course be landing heavy and it is all but impossible to fight through all three Allies.  You would have had to set up fortress Europe in that case and really been cleaning up in Afr or something.

[newpaintbrush]

You do know that NCSSwitch isn’t proposing a German “counter” at all.  He’s talking about the WRus/Ukr opening, which has its own set of advantages and drawbacks.

Or are you REALLY SAYING, NCSSwitch, that you have a REAL counter for Belorussia/West Russia, and that you have REFUTED the move?

?!

We shall see, when your German fighters at the Balkans aren’t available to repel the Allies in the Atlantic.

[Guest]

A FIG supported Belo attack leaves FIGs landing in Germany or Eastern, both of which can reach the coastal SZ’s

Not sure what your beef is with that lurch counter…

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

A FIG supported Belo attack leaves FIGs landing in Germany or Eastern, both of which can reach the coastal SZ’s

Not sure what your beef is with that lurch counter…

Oh, I have no problems with FIGs landing in Germany or Eastern, but then they wouldn’t be landing in Ukraine, would they?

I just want to make sure we’re all on the same page.

[Guest]

Also, there is no real threat of amphibs in Western for the first turn.  4 units from UK is all that can be dropped in Western on Turn 1.  And Germany can easilly reinforce Western with a couple of INF a turn.  To make a serious attempt at Western, you need the RAF, which means a living Baltic Fleet that can come out of the Baltic and attack the UK fleet (or invade London if UK built all navy).

You can use the AF to reinforce Ukraine on G1, then depending on Allied moves either keep it there for use against Russia, or send it to a more central location.  And with 6 FIGs, you can do a little of each…

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

Also, there is no real threat of amphibs in Western for the first turn.  4 units from UK is all that can be dropped in Western on Turn 1.  And Germany can easilly reinforce Western with a couple of INF a turn.  To make a serious attempt at Western, you need the RAF, which means a living Baltic Fleet that can come out of the Baltic and attack the UK fleet (or invade London if UK built all navy).

You can use the AF to reinforce Ukraine on G1, then depending on Allied moves either keep it there for use against Russia, or send it to a more central location.  And with 6 FIGs, you can do a little of each…

Well, we differ on particulars, but I think we agree on the essentials.  I don’t think the RAF is necessary to Western, but I think the Allies should have at least 4 UK transports and 6 US transports in the Atlantic before things really get rolling; 5-6 and 6-8 far better, and even then, I’d send infantry to Archangel/Karelia/Norway/Eastern Europe or Algeria for quite some time.

The problem with staging fighters at Ukraine rather than Western Europe is the combined Allied fleet off Gibraltar at the end of Russia2, with UK recapturing Anglo-Egypt on UK1.  Germany can retake Anglo-Egypt on G2, but by that time, the Allies are set to push through Africa.  Fighter range doesn’t let them land in the Balkans but cover Africa efficiently, unless you’re talking about a German Med aircraft carrier, and that’s another plate of potatoes.

Note that I’m not saying that Ukraine/West Russia is not viable.  By no means do I imply that.

I do say, though, that Ukraine/West Russia is not necessarily the “right” move.  I wouldn’t think of it as the “wrong” move by any means, but I don’t think it is the clear superior choice, it has its own set of advantages and drawbacks.

So let me ask you, DO you think that Ukr/West Russia IS the superior choice?

[Guest]

Let me say it this way…

I started as a WR/Belo player.
Then I shifted to WR/Ukr.
In my current game I went WR only, and I have not yet decided if I like how that works.

[DarthMaximus]

I went through a similar progression.

I liked Wrus/Belo until I got “diced” two to three times in a row.  It is unlikely, but it really left a sour taste in my mouth and left me saying “hey if I’m going to risk a dice job why not just attack Ukr instead”.  So…

I started doing the Ukr attack (even if bid units placed there), and while it worked well, there were of course times were the battle went south and again I was left wonder does Russia have to make a second attack to win"
I also didn’t like losing the 2-3 tanks.

Which led me to the Wrus only attack.  I’ve had pretty good success with it thus far, and kind of figured I’d keep using it until I start getting in trouble consistantly, but that hasn’t happened yet.

I do think you need to buy 3 inf, 3 arm with it or 2/2/2 b/c you want to make sure Ger can’t hold Ukr.

I will have to continue to look into the threat of the tank dash (with 8 arm buy), but I’ve yet to see it used against me.

I do find all three openings good with their own draw backs as you guys pointed out, but right now my preferece in the Wrus only.

[newpaintbrush]

This is my view:

I think that there is an excellent chance a 2 tank Ukraine attack will succeed. If the Ukraine attack succeeds, the Allies are in very good position.

There is a small chance that the Ukraine attack fails.

There is also a small chance that the battle in West Russia will go badly because Russian forces that could otherwise have hit West Russia were diverted to Ukraine.

IF the Ukraine attack fails, and IF the Russians take more casualties in West Russia than expected, the door is opened for a very nasty Tank Dash to Moscow scenario.

IF I succeed at the Ukraine attack, and IF I succeed at West Russia, I have made the Allied advance in the Atlantic a bit easier, and taken out a tank and an artillery that could have caused me real problems in about four or five turns.

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On the other hand, if I attack Belorussia and West Russia, I now have more units attacking West Russia, so I can anticipate fewer Russian losses.  And if I fail to take Belorussia, the Russian goal of depleting the front line German infantry is still accomplished, unless the Germans somehow perform spectacularly and kill 3 Russian infantry for 0-1 German infantry.

IF the Belorussian attack and the West Russian attack both go badly, Germany STILL won’t find the door open for a tank dash (barring REALLY horrible dice, and I mean far more horrible than you need for Ukraine/West Russia to go wrong).

IF I succed at Belorussia and West Russia, I haven’t improved the Russian situation much, but I haven’t given Germany any chances to knock a hole in the Russian defense.  I will have to deal with another German artillery and tank in about four or five turns, but by that time, the Allies should have their transport chain set up, so I shouldn’t really have to worry about that artillery and tank anyways

–

As profitable as the Ukraine/West Russia attack is, it gives a small chance that the Axis will get an opening for a tank dash.  Since I think the Allies have an advantage over time, I say why take chances, no matter how small?

[djensen]

Posted to website.

[Ranor]

I’m currently translating the article of Dart Maximus and there occured a problem concerning the attack values.

“(Note: an alternative aggressive buy would be the 2 inf, 2 rt, 2 arm buy. 6 units, 12-attack, 14-defense <– I like this one as well.)”

In this case he valued the strength of inf and art independendly (2x1 + 2x2 +2x3 =12). In an example above he messured the inf as 2 if combined with an art.

“The middle of the road play (5 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm). 7 units, 11-attack, 15-defense”

(4x1 + 2x2 + 1x3 =11)

I thought I would just state it as 14 attack in th first example, but since the article is already published, I just wanted to ask.

[DarthMaximus]

You’re right.  It would be 14.  I forgot to give the inf their bonus.

I’ll edit the first post and thanks for pointing that out.

[Guest]

Translation AND technical editing.

Fantastic!
:-D

[My Lord]

I think that the dissenters to “Russian Basics” have a strong case.  However, I do believe attacking only West Russia is a very strong move for the USSR.

1. The army attacking West Russia is both too large and too small.  Medium sized attacks on the Eastern front are a terrible strategic mistake.  Either the attack must consist of a mimimal attacking ground force to minimize losses to a counterattack, or it must consist of all forces that can be spared to hold the territory to inflict maximum casualties in a foolish counterattack.  Therefore, I see absolutely no point in keeping 2 tanks and 2 infantry that could attack in reserve, at Karelia or Moscow.  Indeed, no infantry should be left in Karelia.

2. Germany can counterattack at West Russia in the after scenario of “Russian Basics” and inflict far graver losses on Russia than losses it would suffer.  By sending 6 planes, 3 tanks, 1 artillery and 6 infantry, Germany can expect to capture the territory, lose a plane to AA fire, and lose all land units in a Soviet counterattack, but would inflict losses of 9 inf, 2 art, 2 arm.  The simple truth of Revised is that Germany outbuilds Russia but the Allies outbuild Germany (at the beginning at least).  There is no reason why Germany (with Japan’s help) cannot defeat Russia because it has vast superiority in tanks and planes, plus rough parity in infantry and artillery, plus economic superiority, unless Germany takes its time.  If I were Germany I would always make this attack if Russia played this way; I could land 4-5 planes in Ukraine with 4 infantry and 3 tanks, which is more than enough to resist the counter of 6 infantry, 5 tanks, and 2 planes that could follow (and don’t forget the Russians must retake WRus).

3. The fact of the matter is that if Germany and Russia are both taking very large and roughly equivalent losses early in the game, Russia is losing badly.  The whole point of attacking only WRus is to kill the most you can while losing only a couple of infantry for the entire first turn.  By making this mid-sized attack, you are allowing Germany to essential recreate the losses as if Russia had attacked all three of WRus, Bel and Ukr, except this time Germany ends up with WRus by the end of its turn.  It is usually worth it for Germany to lose a fighter to AA fire, as German loses in EXCESS of Soviet loses in IPC value, after taking into account all lands units lost to the Soviet counter and the 2 IPCs gained through capture is precisely ZERO.  Besides, on the Eastern front, which should be Germany’s top priority, a fighter to Germany is worth only slightly more than a tank: similar firepower, similar flexibility, different uses (one takes territories, the other flies back to defend well after the fight).  I know Germany needs all the fighters it can spare against the UK/US, but if Russia falls a turn before Berlin is seriously threatened, the loss of the entire Luftwaffe doesn’t matter; it can be rebuilt as easy as taking Karelia.

In sum, as Russia I would build 4 inf, 3 art or simply 8 inf.  I would attack WRus with 4 inf, 1 art, 2 fig, that’s it.  Although I appreciate that the Russian main army’s best position is WRus, I do not think that is has the ability to move there en masse and survive for the first turn and sometimes the second.

I would usually end with (assuming 4 inf 3 art purchase):
WRus 1 inf, 1 art
Cau 10 inf, 3 art, 4 arm, 2 fig
Rus 7 inf, 1 art
Yak 6 inf
Persia 1 inf (if India should fall, it plus 1 tank retake it and UK goes again before Japan)
Sinkiang 1 inf (fighters may follow on turn two if necessary)

Notice the incredible strength poised to muster at WRus for good on turn 2 or 3.  If 8 inf were purchased, there would be 11 inf in Russia and 11 inf but only 1 art in Caucasus, which is also strong.  The case for the artillery placement at Caucasus exists because an all-too-common mistake for Germany is to retake WRus with a small force, mass prematurely at Ukr without sufficient forces to counter on Germany’s first turn; in that case the USSR can give Germany a rough beating at Ukr the second turn, always ready to have its grand union at WRus and stay put until the US/UK are ready to attack.

[Jennifer]

I assume we are talking Russia ONLY attacking W. Russia?  Why would Russia do that?

[DarthMaximus]

@Cmdr:

I assume we are talking Russia ONLY attacking W. Russia?  Why would Russia do that?

To maintain a strong defensive base and keep all your initial rt/arm alive.  Also to take out as many Germans with as few Russians as possible.

@My:

1. The army attacking West Russia is both too large and too small.

I would agree that that could be a problem, however, You can attack with 10 inf, 2 rt, 2 arm, 2 ftrs and be safe from counter.

I’ve found as long as you take with 7-8 inf + other troops, Germany won’t counter.  You can even bring in a third arm.
You can also attack with 9 inf + other troops and then Non-Com an extra 1-2 inf in if you lose too many.

Worst case is you can move everything to Wrus (if you had horrible rolls) and deadzone Cauc.

I’d rather trade Cauc than Wrus early.

@My:

2. Germany can counterattack at West Russia in the after scenario of “Russian Basics” and inflict far graver losses on Russia than losses it would suffer.

It was just an apporximation.  I’ll often leave Kar empty and have about 9 inf in Wrus.  Even with 8, while Germany may attack, chances are they won’t.
CLARIFICATION:  I would play LL differently.

But in ADS if Germany wants to roll the dice against and AA and 12 ground units, I’ll take that.  I don’t think Germany gains here, given the Russian counter ability.  I’ve been using Wrus only open for awhile and I’ve yet to see someone risk the G1 attack when Russia has 11-12 units left.  Again worst case you beef up Wrus and invite Germany into Cauc.

@My:

3. The fact of the matter is that if Germany and Russia are both taking very large and roughly equivalent losses early in the game, Russia is losing badly.  The whole point of attacking only WRus is to kill the most you can while losing only a couple of infantry for the entire first turn.  By making this mid-sized attack, you are allowing Germany to essential recreate the losses as if Russia had attacked all three of WRus, Bel and Ukr, except this time Germany ends up with WRus by the end of its turn.  It is usually worth it for Germany to lose a fighter to AA fire, as German loses in EXCESS of Soviet loses in IPC value, after taking into account all lands units lost to the Soviet counter and the 2 IPCs gained through capture is precisely ZERO.  Besides, on the Eastern front, which should be Germany’s top priority, a fighter to Germany is worth only slightly more than a tank: similar firepower, similar flexibility, different uses (one takes territories, the other flies back to defend well after the fight).  I know Germany needs all the fighters it can spare against the UK/US, but if Russia falls a turn before Berlin is seriously threatened, the loss of the entire Luftwaffe doesn’t matter; it can be rebuilt as easy as taking Karelia.

I would agree that trading unit for unit early is usually bad for the Russians, but I would disagree that 10 inf, 2 rt, 2 arm, 2 ftrs is a “mid-sized” attack.  This technically should get 5 hits and clear the battle in 1 rd.  I have no prob bringing in the 11th inf or a 3rd arm or bringing the extra inf in Non-com if needed.  I just don’t see Germany attacking a stack with ~12 units there.

Essentially Germany could be risking the game on Russia AA-fire.  If Russia gets more than one hit and Germany rolls down, it is game over.  Whereas even if Germany rolls up, UK can land in Arch, Non-Com to Cauc from Per and Russia can still counter Heavy on R2 as well as take Ukr.  I just don’t know if the risk-reward is there for the Germans.

@My:

In sum, as Russia I would build 4 inf, 3 art or simply 8 inf.  I would attack WRus with 4 inf, 1 art, 2 fig, that’s it.  Although I appreciate that the Russian main army’s best position is WRus, I do not think that is has the ability to move there en masse and survive for the first turn and sometimes the second.

I would usually end with (assuming 4 inf 3 art purchase):
WRus 1 inf, 1 art
Cau 10 inf, 3 art, 4 arm, 2 fig
Rus 7 inf, 1 art
Yak 6 inf
Persia 1 inf (if India should fall, it plus 1 tank retake it and UK goes again before Japan)
Sinkiang 1 inf (fighters may follow on turn two if necessary)

Interesting.
But with 4 inf, 1 rt, 2 ftrs - I’d be too afraid to pull that attack off.  :-)

One set of bad dice and Germany may hold Wrus, which is a whole new problem.

I’d still probably rather take the risk of leaving 8-9 inf, 2 rt, 2 arm in Wrus then the chance I might not take Wrus on R1.