Russian Basics

[DarthMaximus]

@newpaintbrush:

I should have written this move out in the first place, because Caucasus is less defended than West Russia.  That’s what happens when I’m not looking at a board.

Anyways, you can see that if the Russians attack north, the Germans retain control of the Caucasus early.  If the Russians attack Ukraine, it’s not good for the Russians.  If the Russians retake Caucasus, the Germans can unite at West Russia on G2, by which point you can get a good number of Jap fighters in to reinforce, so Russia is forced to pull back to Moscow (if the Russians don’t, the Germans take Moscow), after which the Germans get a strong grip on the Caucasus.

That’s what happens!  Okay, the Germans risk two more fighters than you see in the screenshot, and it could be considerably worse for the Germans, depending on the results of 1 sub 2 fighters vs German battleship at Gibraltar on G1, and the AA gun results in Caucasus - but the general line plays out the same.

It still leaves a UK counter of Kar or Cauc.

Russia can take Cauc heavy and if Germany unites, Russia hits with about ~19 inf, 2 rt, 5 arm.  You’ll need 4 J ftrs to turn the tide. 
UK still has options as does the US.

2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm vs. 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr is hardly a gimmie in Egy, even mutual destruction is a win for the Allies.

And of course you can always leave 7 inf in Cauc on R1.  That is why I had “~” by my numbers.   :-)
Perhaps 6 inf, makes it too inviting??

I’m generally not to worried about the “PE type” play.  Germany sells out for a quick kill, that I don’t think is going to happen.

And again, I think we are getting into more “advanced” tactics.  I’m not sure if beginners are bringing over 4 J ftrs on J2.

I think it is an unessarily high risk for Ger for potentially little gain.  Should you lose 1-2 ftrs in that Cauc battle you just lost the game.  I’ll take my chances with the R1 open and my combined Allied defense.  Sure every now an then I’ll lose, but that can happen even if you have the perfect opening with no losses.  I’ll play the Wrus R1 opening until I start losing with it.

[DarthMaximus]

I guess one of my main things is, I don’t see why Germany can’t do the same thing if Russia attacked both Wrus and Belo.

The only difference is Ger is down 3 inf and Russia is down 4 or 5 (3 that moved to Belo and 1-2 extra lost at Wrus).

In that case Germany may be looking at only 5 inf in cauc with 3 arm, 2 ftrs, even if they have 6, Germany can still do the same attack you showed here and now Russia can only counter with the inf that survived in Wrus, which is probably 6 and arm in Mos (from the purchase), B/c any Belo inf can’t reach Cauc to counter.

Germany still takes Cauc with an arm or 2, stacks Ukr with 4 inf + arm, ftrs, bom, puts 4 inf in Kar and 1 inf on EE.  Now does Russia counter Ukr and attack 4 inf, 4 arm, 3-4 ftrs, 1 bom with 8 inf (2 inf from belo), 2 rt, 4 arm?  Ger should hold with 1-3 ftrs left.

Russia still has the same options whether they attack Wrus only or Wrus and Belo.  Tank dash is tank dash.  Russia’s opening almost doesn’t matter if the German player is just going to be using risky attacks for the sake of a dash to Mos.

[newpaintbrush]

@DarthMaximus:

@newpaintbrush:

I should have written this move out in the first place, because Caucasus is less defended than West Russia.  That’s what happens when I’m not looking at a board.

Anyways, you can see that if the Russians attack north, the Germans retain control of the Caucasus early.  If the Russians attack Ukraine, it’s not good for the Russians.  If the Russians retake Caucasus, the Germans can unite at West Russia on G2, by which point you can get a good number of Jap fighters in to reinforce, so Russia is forced to pull back to Moscow (if the Russians don’t, the Germans take Moscow), after which the Germans get a strong grip on the Caucasus.

That’s what happens!  Okay, the Germans risk two more fighters than you see in the screenshot, and it could be considerably worse for the Germans, depending on the results of 1 sub 2 fighters vs German battleship at Gibraltar on G1, and the AA gun results in Caucasus - but the general line plays out the same.

It still leaves a UK counter of Kar or Cauc.

OK, so move the German sub to block northwest of Norway.  Continued control of the Caucasus is not the immediate point of the German move; depletion of the Russian forces is.  You could very easily change the German purchase, and take the trade of 5 inf 1 art 3 tanks 1 fighter for 6 infantry 3 tanks 2 fighters.  It’s not a bad trade for the Germans.

Russia can take Cauc heavy and if Germany unites, Russia hits with about ~19 inf, 2 rt, 5 arm.  You’ll need 4 J ftrs to turn the tide. 
UK still has options as does the US.

Yeah, that’s very true, and the combat isn’t as simple as I made it sound like.  But the Japs SHOULD have 4 fighters in range.  After all, the Axis are supposed to work together, and if Japan leaves Pearl alone, which it should in a Tank Dash, those Jap fighters will be available.

2 inf, 1 rt, 1 arm vs. 1 inf, 1 arm, 1 ftr is hardly a gimmie in Egy, even mutual destruction is a win for the Allies.

And of course you can always leave 7 inf in Cauc on R1.  That is why I had “~” by my numbers.  :-)

Hey, if you shifted your forces to a different territory, I could do something different too!

Perhaps 6 inf, makes it too inviting??

I’m generally not to worried about the “PE type” play.  Germany sells out for a quick kill, that I don’t think is going to happen.

Naw, it isn’t Germany selling out.  It’s Germany seeing that the Russians left themselves open for an early Ukraine play, and the Germans running in to try it.  Really, if I were the Germans, I’d prefer to go Tank dash in response to something like a Norway-West Russia-Ukraine attack, with the Russians overextending themselves.  But any time the Russians allow the Germans to hit in force with infantry fodder, the Russians risk losing a lot of units.

And again, I think we are getting into more “advanced” tactics.  I’m not sure if beginners are bringing over 4 J ftrs on J2.

I think it is an unessarily high risk for Ger for potentially little gain.  Should you lose 1-2 ftrs in that Cauc battle you just lost the game.  I’ll take my chances with the R1 open and my combined Allied defense.  Sure every now an then I’ll lose, but that can happen even if you have the perfect opening with no losses.  I’ll play the Wrus R1 opening until I start losing with it.

Although you bring up some good points, I have to say that I remain unconvinced that soloing West Russia is the right move.  I will admit that on consideration, that I think that a pure tank dash isn’t right, but I still think that both long game and tank dash variants will be viable, and I think that Russia losing its fighters on G1 will be very difficult for Russia to compensate for.

As for an “unnecessarily high risk”, though, Tank Dash is all about fast attacks, high stakes, and the Axis taking heavy hits to inflict hits on return to Russia.  The position’s supposed to be:  Germany controls more of Europe, so retains a 40ish income, Japan builds industrial complexes in Manchuria and French Indochina, ignores Pearl Harbor, and both sides push like mad on Moscow.

[newpaintbrush]

@DarthMaximus:

I guess one of my main things is, I don’t see why Germany can’t do the same thing if Russia attacked both Wrus and Belo.

. . .

Tank dash is tank dash.  Russia’s opening almost doesn’t matter if the German player is just going to be using risky attacks for the sake of a dash to Mos.

1.  That’s probably because my West Russia/Belorussia attack looks VASTLY different to yours.  I stick 4-5 infantry and AA gun in Caucasus, that’s it.  Everything else is in West Russia.

2.  Yeeeesss, sort of.  Tank dash is best used in response to an overextended Russia.  I think that splitting your forces between Caucasus and West Russia, while leaving Belorussia and Ukraine alone, lets Germany concentrate its force on one of those territories, and make the Russians pay.  But it’s not REALLY like you’re horribly overextended, like a Norway/Ukraine/West Russia attack result.  Anyways, there’s a very deliberate strategy behind tank dashing, which I shall probably address when I take up the subject of Germany.  But that’s still some time off.

[DarthMaximus]

Certainly valid points NPB.

@newpaintbrush:

1.  That’s probably because my West Russia/Belorussia attack looks VASTLY different to yours.  I stick 4-5 infantry and AA gun in Caucasus, that’s it.  Everything else is in West Russia.

You could also do that with just the Wrus attack.
In Belo you are essentially trading 3 inf for 3 inf (give or take one here or there).  You trade 6 def points for 3 off points, or do you let Germany trade the def pts for off points on G1.

Of course every move has a counter, but as of right now (I started out doing Wrus and Belo and then switched to attack both Ukr and Wrus) I like the Wrus only b/c it allows me to do some other things with UK and US and I think with larger stacks in Wrus and Cauc (should Ger not attack on G1) you can really shut down Germany’s expansion.

Yes the tank dash could be a concern, but I think it is an acceptable risk for Russia given the nature of the German attacks on G1 that must be successful.

I agree, tank dash is good if Russia over extended but I have found the Wrus stack to be the opposite of that.

I have done the strafe of Ukr on R1 before to weaken those G numbers but it sort of comes out the same way if you just stack Wrus.  Just a preference depending on the player I guess.

[newpaintbrush]

@DarthMaximus:

Certainly valid points NPB.

@newpaintbrush:

1.  That’s probably because my West Russia/Belorussia attack looks VASTLY different to yours.  I stick 4-5 infantry and AA gun in Caucasus, that’s it.  Everything else is in West Russia.

You could also do that with just the Wrus attack.
In Belo you are essentially trading 3 inf for 3 inf (give or take one here or there).  You trade 6 def points for 3 off points, or do you let Germany trade the def pts for off points on G1.

Not at all.  You’ll agree that it’s likely that I’ll capture Belorussia with at least 1 infantry?  Then what I’m doing is trading 3 Russian infantry for 3 German infantry and the chance to kill 1 more German infantry on the next turn, plus I’ll get 2 IPC from the territory.  As for trading 6 def points for 3 off points, that’s not accurate.  By the time Germany gears up for the attack, those 3 German infantry aren’t there for attack.  The German infantry are there to soak up casualties and protect the tanks and fighters behind them.  If I kill 3 German infantry now, I kill 3 German tanks that much sooner if/when the Germans make a major attack.

Of course every move has a counter, but as of right now (I started out doing Wrus and Belo and then switched to attack both Ukr and Wrus) I like the Wrus only b/c it allows me to do some other things with UK and US and I think with larger stacks in Wrus and Cauc (should Ger not attack on G1) you can really shut down Germany’s expansion.

Oh, I think I understand why you choose the W. Rus only attack.  My thought, though, is that splitting Russian forces gives Germany the option to attack one of the stacks, and that NOT attacking Germany gives Germany more options on its turn, as well as Russia less IPCs on its turn.  I also do not see that the W. Rus only move shuts down German expansion at all.  The Belorussia/West Russia attack I use is extremely safe, limits Germany’s options for expansion as it leaves Germany no good place to attack, and is more economically advantageous to Russia with more IPCs in the bank, and expected gain on the unit trades for R1 and G1.

Yes the tank dash could be a concern, but I think it is an acceptable risk for Russia given the nature of the German attacks on G1 that must be successful.

Yeees, maybe.  Let me be absolutely clear.  I think that your proposed move is definitely disadvantageous in that you don’t attack Germany when you can.  I think it is POSSIBLY disadvantageous in that you split the Russian stack between two territories that are both in German range.  Tank dash is simply not viable in some games; I wouldn’t try it as a counter to my own Belorussia/West Russia attack.  However, I think that Tank Dash COULD be viable against your plan.  Also, my cat can beat up your cat.

I agree, tank dash is good if Russia over extended but I have found the Wrus stack to be the opposite of that.

I have done the strafe of Ukr on R1 before to weaken those G numbers but it sort of comes out the same way if you just stack Wrus.  Just a preference depending on the player I guess.

I think strafing Ukraine is bad anyways.  Very dicey, and if you’re just strafing, the Germans keep their fighter.  Might as well hit Belorussia and wipe out 3 infantry and gain IPCs from the territory, I think.  Or take Ukraine, even though that’s a bit dicey too.

[DarthMaximus]

I’m usually not concerned with IPC’s (2 here, 2 there), I’m more of a position player.  I’ll obviously take the IPC’s when given, but I won’t necessarily play the IPC game b/c they can be made up in a variety of ways such as a SBR here or there or an extra inf killed, etc.
But time and position cannot be made up. 
Unit and IPC trades are good and all, but not if you sacrifice position.
I’m not saying you would, but it does happen.

(as Russia) I want Germany to have more options on G1.
IMO they can’t do everything well.
It is the same thing with Japan.  You can overload them with targets on J1, and while they may be able to take them all out, they have to take some risks or choose battles where they may have very little margin for error.

In your Belo/Wrus opening, you’re right Germany may not be able to attack as much, but they may be able to move heavy to Ukr.  This would depend on your buy, losses in combat, non-com, and placement, but the door could be opened for strong move to Ukr.  And a similar type of aggressivive Germany play that you use against a Wrus opening can be employed against a Belo/Wrus opening.  It would not be a “tank dash”, but it employs the same tactic of using the tran and BB in Sz 16 instead of Sz 15.

[newpaintbrush]

Combat move:  3 infantry and 1 fighter from Karelia, and 1 fighter from Russia to Belorussia.  All remaining units that can attack West Russia do so.

Noncombat move:  Move the Russian sub to join the UK battleship and transport off the northwestern coast of the United Kingdom, move 2 infantry from Kazakh to Caucasus, 2 infantry from Novosibirsk to Russia, 2 infantry from Yakut to Novosibirsk, 2 infantry from Soviet Far East to Yakut, 2 infantry from Burytia to Yakut, fly 2 fighters to Russia.

Placement:  4 infantry in Russia, 4 infantry in Caucasus.

– cut and pasted from my new article for Russia

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I don’t think there is a German counter.  Not because I think I’m really clever as Russia.  Because I thought for a long time about how to counter this move with Germany, and I couldn’t come up with anything good.

[Guest]

The counter is a German Eastern stack, along with evacuating Norway, taking Karelia, and re-taking Belo.  Germany ends up even in Europe, has all 6 FIGs still alive, and an extra ARM and ART over a WR/Ukr open.

It invites a German “lurch” offensive against Russia, as well as a 3 prong offensive on Russia that potentially includes German units from Persia by the mid game

[DarthMaximus]

Switch has one possible counter.

Another (if we use the trn-BB move to sz 16 per the tank dash) is to stack Ukr with:

9 inf, 1 rt, 6 arm and 2-3 ftrs
(if Russia has 15 inf or less in range of Ukr)
For Russia to have 15 inf they can only lose 1 inf Belo and 2 inf in Wrus on R1.

Germany should buy at least 2 arm, but 3-5 could work as well  (although 5 is little light on inf for me)

With 2 G ftrs, Russia can counter the Ukr stack but in turn get countered by G2 and Russia’s offensive power is wiped out.
With 3 ftrs Russia should lose the counter on R2.

Germany could have (7 inf, 1 rt, 3 arm buy):

Kar:  1 inf
EE:  ~4 inf
Ger:  5 inf, 3 arm
SE:  2 inf, 1 rt
WE:  ~3 inf, 3-4 ftrs
Balk: 1 rt:
Ukr:  9 inf, 1 rt, 6 arm, 2-3 ftrs
land the bom somewhere
Bid is used to take Egy

You could even land the J ftr from Fic in Ukr

I’m not saying it is perfect or would work, but it is certainly something to consider.  Shortly after this Ger pulls out of WE and continues the lurch.  B/c it is easier to defend, Germany just needs to buy enough tanks to make sure they hold a slight adv in Def pts vs. Russian Off pts in Ukr.  And again if Russia attacks on R2 or R3, they get hit on the counter and are eliminated as an offensive threat just as Japan should be getting rolling in Asia.

Well that is one possible theory.  :-)

If Russia takes 2 losses in Belo and 3 Wrus, I don’t think you even need the trn from sz 14, but I’d have to run the numbers to be sure.
Which could free you up to do Egy a bit heavier or take Gib with the BB-trn.

[Guest]

The other point with the lurch…

Once Germany has established their position in Ukraine, Russia faces a choice… defend Caucuses or defend West Russia.  They can’t hold both indefinitely unless UK and USA are pouring every ounce of strength into europe (which of course leaves Japan free to sweep in through the back door).  With 2 consecutive rounds of Germany that has a full luftwaffe and is buying ARM in 2-4 quantities plus INF every turn, and has a Med Fleet, Russia has to abandon either WR or Caucuses, which allows Germany to lurch forward once again.  To counter either one, means draining Russia, and Germany WILL be able to do a follow up attack in either territory, effectively wiping Russia out.  That would be about turn 5 in the above scenario…  right about the time that Japan has 2 movements of troops in Novo (call it 6-10 INF, 1 ART, 1-3 ARM backed up by 2-5 FIGs and a BOM).

[DarthMaximus]

Yeah, with the early move, if it is there (regardless of how Russia opens), there is that period of 3-4 turns where UK/US need to land in Afr, kill the Baltic and Med Fleets and then land in Nor.

At that point if it is rd 4 or so WE becomes expendable and advantageous for Ger to abandon since you actually want the UK and US in WE instead of Kar, if you can gain the Eastern position of Ukr and then either Cauc or Wrus.

Again this can happen no matter how Russia opens but it is why I put such a high priority on Ukr (no matter what side I am) early.

Unrelated to this topic of the Russian open, I think Ger should really be starting to make the lurch in rds 3-6 (earlier is great if there is an opening), but if you start to wait too long the Allies will of course be landing heavy and it is all but impossible to fight through all three Allies.  You would have had to set up fortress Europe in that case and really been cleaning up in Afr or something.

[newpaintbrush]

You do know that NCSSwitch isn’t proposing a German “counter” at all.  He’s talking about the WRus/Ukr opening, which has its own set of advantages and drawbacks.

Or are you REALLY SAYING, NCSSwitch, that you have a REAL counter for Belorussia/West Russia, and that you have REFUTED the move?

?!

We shall see, when your German fighters at the Balkans aren’t available to repel the Allies in the Atlantic.

[Guest]

A FIG supported Belo attack leaves FIGs landing in Germany or Eastern, both of which can reach the coastal SZ’s

Not sure what your beef is with that lurch counter…

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

A FIG supported Belo attack leaves FIGs landing in Germany or Eastern, both of which can reach the coastal SZ’s

Not sure what your beef is with that lurch counter…

Oh, I have no problems with FIGs landing in Germany or Eastern, but then they wouldn’t be landing in Ukraine, would they?

I just want to make sure we’re all on the same page.

[Guest]

Also, there is no real threat of amphibs in Western for the first turn.  4 units from UK is all that can be dropped in Western on Turn 1.  And Germany can easilly reinforce Western with a couple of INF a turn.  To make a serious attempt at Western, you need the RAF, which means a living Baltic Fleet that can come out of the Baltic and attack the UK fleet (or invade London if UK built all navy).

You can use the AF to reinforce Ukraine on G1, then depending on Allied moves either keep it there for use against Russia, or send it to a more central location.  And with 6 FIGs, you can do a little of each…

[newpaintbrush]

@ncscswitch:

Also, there is no real threat of amphibs in Western for the first turn.  4 units from UK is all that can be dropped in Western on Turn 1.  And Germany can easilly reinforce Western with a couple of INF a turn.  To make a serious attempt at Western, you need the RAF, which means a living Baltic Fleet that can come out of the Baltic and attack the UK fleet (or invade London if UK built all navy).

You can use the AF to reinforce Ukraine on G1, then depending on Allied moves either keep it there for use against Russia, or send it to a more central location.  And with 6 FIGs, you can do a little of each…

Well, we differ on particulars, but I think we agree on the essentials.  I don’t think the RAF is necessary to Western, but I think the Allies should have at least 4 UK transports and 6 US transports in the Atlantic before things really get rolling; 5-6 and 6-8 far better, and even then, I’d send infantry to Archangel/Karelia/Norway/Eastern Europe or Algeria for quite some time.

The problem with staging fighters at Ukraine rather than Western Europe is the combined Allied fleet off Gibraltar at the end of Russia2, with UK recapturing Anglo-Egypt on UK1.  Germany can retake Anglo-Egypt on G2, but by that time, the Allies are set to push through Africa.  Fighter range doesn’t let them land in the Balkans but cover Africa efficiently, unless you’re talking about a German Med aircraft carrier, and that’s another plate of potatoes.

Note that I’m not saying that Ukraine/West Russia is not viable.  By no means do I imply that.

I do say, though, that Ukraine/West Russia is not necessarily the “right” move.  I wouldn’t think of it as the “wrong” move by any means, but I don’t think it is the clear superior choice, it has its own set of advantages and drawbacks.

So let me ask you, DO you think that Ukr/West Russia IS the superior choice?

[Guest]

Let me say it this way…

I started as a WR/Belo player.
Then I shifted to WR/Ukr.
In my current game I went WR only, and I have not yet decided if I like how that works.

[DarthMaximus]

I went through a similar progression.

I liked Wrus/Belo until I got “diced” two to three times in a row.  It is unlikely, but it really left a sour taste in my mouth and left me saying “hey if I’m going to risk a dice job why not just attack Ukr instead”.  So…

I started doing the Ukr attack (even if bid units placed there), and while it worked well, there were of course times were the battle went south and again I was left wonder does Russia have to make a second attack to win"
I also didn’t like losing the 2-3 tanks.

Which led me to the Wrus only attack.  I’ve had pretty good success with it thus far, and kind of figured I’d keep using it until I start getting in trouble consistantly, but that hasn’t happened yet.

I do think you need to buy 3 inf, 3 arm with it or 2/2/2 b/c you want to make sure Ger can’t hold Ukr.

I will have to continue to look into the threat of the tank dash (with 8 arm buy), but I’ve yet to see it used against me.

I do find all three openings good with their own draw backs as you guys pointed out, but right now my preferece in the Wrus only.

[newpaintbrush]

This is my view:

I think that there is an excellent chance a 2 tank Ukraine attack will succeed. If the Ukraine attack succeeds, the Allies are in very good position.

There is a small chance that the Ukraine attack fails.

There is also a small chance that the battle in West Russia will go badly because Russian forces that could otherwise have hit West Russia were diverted to Ukraine.

IF the Ukraine attack fails, and IF the Russians take more casualties in West Russia than expected, the door is opened for a very nasty Tank Dash to Moscow scenario.

IF I succeed at the Ukraine attack, and IF I succeed at West Russia, I have made the Allied advance in the Atlantic a bit easier, and taken out a tank and an artillery that could have caused me real problems in about four or five turns.

–

On the other hand, if I attack Belorussia and West Russia, I now have more units attacking West Russia, so I can anticipate fewer Russian losses.  And if I fail to take Belorussia, the Russian goal of depleting the front line German infantry is still accomplished, unless the Germans somehow perform spectacularly and kill 3 Russian infantry for 0-1 German infantry.

IF the Belorussian attack and the West Russian attack both go badly, Germany STILL won’t find the door open for a tank dash (barring REALLY horrible dice, and I mean far more horrible than you need for Ukraine/West Russia to go wrong).

IF I succed at Belorussia and West Russia, I haven’t improved the Russian situation much, but I haven’t given Germany any chances to knock a hole in the Russian defense.  I will have to deal with another German artillery and tank in about four or five turns, but by that time, the Allies should have their transport chain set up, so I shouldn’t really have to worry about that artillery and tank anyways

–

As profitable as the Ukraine/West Russia attack is, it gives a small chance that the Axis will get an opening for a tank dash.  Since I think the Allies have an advantage over time, I say why take chances, no matter how small?