2017 League General Discussion Thread

[Omega1759]

I guess there’s a stopping point when your refresh this. I agree that the differences would be trivial, but the scores are never truly converged, other than by the results of new games coming in.

E.g., Player A has tier 1, if changing the tier of Player A increases the tiers of opponents in such a way that Player A becomes tier E, then that’s the converged answer.

Eventually a chain reaction such as the one that Simon33 created cleans it up though.

[gamerman01]

:-) You’re 6-0!  Planning a playoff run this year, Professor?

[Omega1759]

@Gamerman01:

:-) You’re 6-0!  Planning a playoff run this year, Professor?

It’s probably the only year I could ever qualify for the playoffs. Actually playing is a different story. If the playoffs are BM3, then I have virtually no chance.

And if I qualified, I would likely play a third game against ME1945, you know what that means  :lol:

[simon33]

@Gamerman01:

How did I do it when there was no last year, Simon?  :wink:

Everyone started as tier 3 then, I guess. Or tier 4 if that still existed. Unless there was a special rule.

[Gargantua]

I think people that are “new” to the league should come with a “bonus point” for their first game, and for the opponent who plays them first.

Or that there is atleast some small incentive to recruit new people.  That’s worth something!

[majikforce]

Rules question:  Philippines is japan controlled and sz 35 has a Japanese sub in it, the US combat moves into the sz with a transport and a destroyer.  He ignores the sub and unloads to Philippines.  Question is can I use my kamikazes to kill the dd and if I do can the transport still unload?  Thanks

[Adam514]

If the DD is destroyed then your sub blocks the assault. That’s why Japanese subs in Kami zones are pretty good at deterring the Allies from taking the island.

[majikforce]

Thanks Adam that’s what I thought, just needed confirmation.

[gamerman01]

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28562.90

No, actually, Krieghund explained that kamikaze strikes don’t create a battle.  The sub can be ignored, the kamikazes can attack the destroyer, but that attack does not constitute combat in the zone.  The kamikaze strike on the destroyer is independent - it does not involve the sub or the transport.  The sub is still ignored.  In other words, kamikazes don’t pull ignored subs into battle - they can’t undo the ignoring (that occurred during the combat movement phase)

See reply #2340 in the Q&A thread linked above

[majikforce]

Strange that a battle does not trigger combat in a sz, but its Kreig so its gotta be true!  Not sure I agree with the premise that the sub stays ignored when there are no ships there to ignore it.  Thanks for the clarification though gamerman!

[gamerman01]

Sure thing, and I can explain it:

Don’t think of the kamikazes as a “battle”, but rather an “attack” or a special attack, at that.  It is a unique rule.

The sub was ignored in the combat movement phase when there was an attacking destroyer to ignore it.  Kamikazes happen at the beginning of the conduct combat phase, which is after the combat movement phase is entirely complete.

[oysteilo]

@majikforce:

Strange that a battle does not trigger combat in a sz, but its Kreig so its gotta be true!  Not sure I agree with the premise that the sub stays ignored when there are no ships there to ignore it.  Thanks for the clarification though gamerman!Â

You can also look at page 156 and the next couple of pages in the Q&A for a similar discussion. I struggled with the logic there for a while

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=28562.2325

[Adam514]

Wow that’s an obscure rule, my apologies.

[JDOW]

Interesting, thanks Gamerman.

“In other words, kamikazes don’t pull ignored subs into battle”

I am curious: Do scramble battles pull ignored subs into battle?

Assuming German sub in sz113, US goes there with DD, TT and 3 air, unloading to Norway ignoring the sub.
The Germans scramble 3 planes, the German planes die, but so does the DD.

–> Can the TT now unload or does the sub prevent it?

[JDOW]

Oh, and of course, does the sub fight in the sea battle? I guess yes, correct?

[gamerman01]

@JDOW:

Oh, and of course, does the sub fight in the sea battle? I guess yes, correct?

Yes, again, kamikazes are unique.  They are a separate attack that takes place at the beginning of the conduct combat phase.

Scrambles of aircraft (actual plastic pieces on the board as opposed to kamikaze tokens) are regular, conventional battles that create combat in the seazone (kamikazes do not), bringing the subs into the battle.

[gamerman01]

No worries, Adam, it’s very helpful that you answer so many questions.  None of us are 100% accurate all of the time.  So thank you

[majikforce]

@Gamerman01:

Sure thing, and I can explain it:

Don’t think of the kamikazes as a “battle”, but rather an “attack” or a special attack, at that.  It is a unique rule.

The sub was ignored in the combat movement phase when there was an attacking destroyer to ignore it.  Kamikazes happen at the beginning of the conduct combat phase, which is after the combat movement phase is entirely complete.

Not to beat a dead horse but I am having trouble grasping the logic here. Not saying you are wrong just need to wrap my head around it.

Rulebook says pg15 Combat move phase:
However, a transport is not allowed to offload land units for an amphibious assault in a sea zone containing 1 or more ignored enemy submarines unless at least 1 warship belonging to the attacking power is also present in the sea zone at the end of the Combat Move phase.

I now understand the idea that the condition was met in order for the transport to unload.

But then pg 17 Conduct combat phase for amphibious assaults says:
Step 1. Sea Combat If there are defending surface warships and/or scrambled air units, sea combat occurs. If there are only defending submarines and/or transports, the attacker can choose to ignore those units or conduct sea combat. If sea combat occurs, all attacking and defending sea and air units present must participate in the battle. (Even if the attacker chose to ignore defending subs and/or transports, they will still be involved in the battle if the defender scrambles air units and forces a sea battle.) Conduct the sea combat using the rules for General Combat (page 18), then go to step 3 (land combat). If no sea combat occurs, go to step 2 (bombardment).

This seems to me that since the Kamikazes occur at the begininnig of the conduct combat phase that the conditions have now been altered. Hence the attacker getting the choice to ignore for a second time.  The idea that the “ignore” conditions change is further evidenced by the fact that a scrambling fighter can negate the attackers choice to ignore.  Just a little confused.  Please explain.

[wheatbeer]

@majikforce:

Hence the attacker getting the choice to ignore for a second time.

The attacker only decides one time whether or not to ignore subs.

Kamikaze does not force a second “choice to ignore” from the attacker.

Scramble does not force a second “choice to ignore” from the attacker, but Scramble does gives the defender the option for their subs to fight (regardless of the attacker’s “choice to ignore”).

[gamerman01]

Kamikazes aren’t even mentioned in the rules you cited, because the kamikazes are irrelevant to these rules (ignoring submarines/transports).

“Sea combat occurs if there are defending surface warships or scrambled airplanes” which is exactly what I’ve been trying to say (answer to JDOW’s question)

Kamikazes don’t create “sea combat”.
Maybe it would help you to think of kamikazes as being between the combat movement and conduct combat phases - because kamikaze attacks are, in effect, independent of either phase.

Anyway, Wheatbeer’s right that the attacker chooses to ignore subs in the combat movement phase, and that is a one time decision.

Only a scrambled plane will undo that ignoring, because scrambled airplanes cause sea combat and “all (attacking and) defending sea and air units present must participate in the battle”, the rule you quoted.

Again, kamikazes are different and unique.  They are not a sea or air unit.