lost tribe,
9th SS was in Arnhem proper whereas 10th SS was in Osterbeek. Later they were stationed on the south side of the river, blocking XXX Corps from reaching Arnhem.
Hidden Objectives means that the Allies get a “random” list of objectives ranked by order of importance, which the Germans will “slowly” have to discover by movement.
4 Main Objective cities are on the map, which I have already mentioned. 2 more exist, one on the German Border and Appledoorn in the north.
As far as the 52nd its definite landing point was in the Arnhem sector…
More to come…
GG
Thanks, GG we should havea bad a** map by the time all the smoke clears.
-LT04
GG,
What happened in Appledorrn?
-LT04
Appledorn? Eventually liberated by the Hastings and Prince Edward Regiment from Canada!
Audacity,
So Appledorn wasn’t park of Operation Marget Garden it was part of the Canadian push after Market Garden failed.
-LT04
15. There was a fairy they Polish Paratroopers were supposed to use to meet up with the British 1st. What I have read is the fairy was missing and was later found down stream unserviceable. What would you say if we established a dock on the map? If the Germans held that space at the beginning of turn 5 the fairy was destroyed. If the space was unoccupied anyone who held that location could choose to destroy or use it like an exclusive bridge. Just taking input, I’d like to know what you think about this subject.
-LT04
I don’t mean to pick, but I use a ferry. Unless your going to put trolls at the bridges… :wink:
On a more serious note. The 9th and 10th SS were on R&R after heavy combat. Infact I believe the 9th SS “Panzer” actualy had no tanks. Between the two divisions they had the numbers for about one full strenth div.
As for deployment, I would give the allies loose perameters and let them choose thier LZs. I would have them write them down and then have the German player deploy. Historicaly the Allied landing came in waves, so I would say the allies should get half on T1 and the other half on T3. Part of the difficulty for the Brit AB was begining thier assault and defeding their LZs for the 2nd wave.
The 9th SS had a recon unit that was a major player in both Nijmegan and Arnham so yo umay think about some scout units, they initaly started in Arnhem, but the Brits advance was stalled, so they went to Nijmegan and held that bridge before returning to Arnhem where the Brit AB stopped them at the Bridge.
Also due to communication problems and planning snafu’s the Germans enjoyed initiative through out the battle, which is historicly unusual for an AB operation.
I am saying if you want to sway from the traditional objectives add Appledoorn. Market Garden is a one minded operation, get up that road and turn right… I have always wondered, what would happened if the objective was ultimately to turn left (Antwerp)… Any number of scenarios can be created, depending on the size of your map. If it is mainly focused on the operational areas then disregard Appledoorn. I would suggest along with Jermofoot to pick up Close Combat: A Bridge Too Far. I still play it occasionally, even despite its interface innacuracies (Panzerfausts have extended ranges, Infantry panic mid street and attempt to crawl, etc.) it supplied me with a lot of background looking into the operation area.
As a sideline, I’m not sure if you know this, but the end goal of Op Market Garden was to swing into the Rhine Valley and Destroy the 3rd Reich’s Industry…
Dzrt, actually 9th SS Panzer did have some Heavy Tanks, but they came in on the 19th I believe… It is true they were both Half Strength though… There "strength came from “Kampfgruppe’s” organized from Ad Hoc Units thrown together from the Allied Rampages in Normandy and France at large. And I would agree, Com plays a large part in the battle… Whether hidden info is implemented, or you have die +/- factoring find a way to implement Com…
GG
I think the british com issues are most easily handled with an initiative bonus to the Germans.
Yes! I couldn’t agree more… Impulse move for each sector would definitely make the gameplay better, adding that element into it that you don’t get with just straight “Market Garden”…
GG
Hey,
I understand why we can’t just tell the British player take this DZ by this turn for reinforcements b/c then the German player would also be aware of this and try to stop this form happening when chances are they may or may not have ever knew about it in the first place.
I like the idea of keeping the primary objectives the same and mixing up the secondary objectives. I had an idea that we should put the secondary objectives on cheap business cards I can make on the computer shuffle them up and have allied players pick so many. This way the German player will really have no idea what the allies are trying to secure.
I know the ferry idea historically didn’t work out and it had nothing to do with the German or Allied players, but it looks like we might want to throw it in as a secondary objective if we run short of other ideas.
As far a DZ go I like you idea of leaving them up to the allied player. I think we should set some rules for example they can only land in open spaces (for obvious reasons) that way we can limitedly funnel them into a general area by placing city, or forest spaces without telling them where they have to land specifically.
I like you idea of swaying away from the traditional objectives and having them move to Appledoorn or Antwerp. I wonder if that’s such a good idea if we make this accurate the British 1st will be the only ones who can reach it and they will have their hands full. If you have a proposal let me know.
I’m still looking for a good map of Eindhoven. If any one comes a cross one let me know. I went to Googel Earth and I found the Lower Rhine, and Waal rivers but Maas doesn’t show up. Even if it did I’m still unsure of where 101st landed in or around it.
Thanks for all the help,
-LT04
One of the great aspects of gaming is the ability to play the same or closely similar scenarios through several times. Once you get this map sorted out I’d plan to use it several times.
The history as I understand it was that Market Garden was extremely linear and places like Apledorn were not in the plans. Obviously it was liberated later in the war. Playing alternate scenarios could change this.
I’d play the first couple of versions trying to maintain realism of objectives from history while putting in secondary secret objectives for game play.
I know hind sight is 20-20, but I think I would have sent 101st, wait to have heard there report then sent 82nd, wait to have heard there report then sent the British 1st. Once the 101st said big bridge go boom I might have sent 82nd but not the 1st.
-LT04
In the AAM game 1 space = 100 meters. My board isn’t off by much for being scaled down. It would be more like 1 space = 1,000 meters. So from Arnhem to Nijmegen it’s a perfect 18 spaces or 18,087 meters. I’m not sure how far I’m off with Eindhoven or other towns but with Googel Earth I’ll fix them. I’ll try to make them the same size also.
-LT04
I don’t know if you’ve looked at this yet, but there are some good operational type maps and discriptions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
Concerning initiative -
I believe that the Germans were slow to respond. There was disbelief that a daylight AB raid occurred. However, it didn’t take long until they organized and put up an effort.
I think for game mechanics, the initiative should be on the Allies. They are essentially outgunned (the AB), and can’t receive reinforcement unless XXX corps makes a major push. I’ve got a few ideas for you that I could try and post later. So giving an initiative to Germany while they have homefield advantage anyway seems a bit extreme to me, but I’d have to see the exact implementation.
As far a DZ go I like you idea of leaving them up to the allied player. I think we should set some rules for example they can only land in open spaces (for obvious reasons) that way we can limitedly funnel them into a general area by placing city, or forest spaces without telling them where they have to land specifically.
Defineately, designate boundries for where the DZ has to be but alow the Alied player to choose the specific spot.
Also you might add a random chance of units missing the designated DZ. Â The odds in MG where good compared to Dday, but still I think 15% of units missed the DZ.
As for initiative, the Allies should definately have initiative on the first turn, but after that historicly they lost it. The germans were confused for a short time but once it was reported where the landings had occured it was obvious what the objective was.
The Bitish Communication problems were a big problem for the 1st, they were unable to comunicate more than a couple hundred yards and they’re deployment covered up to eight miles. They couldn’t coordinate indirect fire or air support.
The Bitish Communication problems were a big problem for the 1st, they were unable to comunicate more than a couple hundred yards and they’re deployment covered up to eight miles. They couldn’t coordinate indirect fire or air support.
Not to mention some of their commanding officers were held up in an attic.
Dezrtfish,
I had planned to make secondary DZ ‘areas’ for the player to place units that were split from the main group. I had planned to make the British 1st farther apart (for historical accuracy) and the 82nd and 101st closer together.
I’m unsure what an ‘initiative bonus’ is and how you implement it into the game. Could you clarify, please?
You bring up another question I wanted to ask. Was there enough allied or German air support in this campaign worth mentioning?
Some more general questions:
Was the 9th Recon Battalion a unit of the 9th SS Panzer? I was considering placing them in like fashion to the paratroopers a few rounds into the game.
Also did Oss play any part in this campaign? To keep my map even close to scale I may have to cut it but if it played a role I figure something out.
Thanks for all the help,
-LT04
As far as initiative jumping back and forth from side to side is there a way we can engineer it so who ever performed a specific event got the initiative bonus for the next round?
-LT04
I would propose something along the timeline:
T1 - AB gets an initiative bonus. You could do this by penalizing the attacking/defending power of the German force, or adding bonuses to the attacking AB.
As the turns go on, this bonus is reduced, or outright eliminated. One could be applied to the German force at that time (possibly increased as time goes on) to represent homefield advantage/defense, plus the organization and mobilization of forces. It all depends on your system.
It’s like the balance of A&A in regards to units and economic power - the Axis have a large force and moderate economic power at the beginning. The Allies have a smaller force but a larger economic potential…
