16L BM2 Marshmellow of War (Allies) vs simon33 (Axis) Game II

[MarshmallowofWar]

No rule requires Japan to be at war to reinforce a US territory. Korea is not part of China.

[MarshmallowofWar]

Rephrasing: No rule requires Russia to be at war to reinforce a US held Korea. Russia is not attacking, and Korea is not part of China.

[MarshmallowofWar]

Also, nothing in the notes says anything about Korea being part of China, nor is there any entry denying the Russians entry into Korea via non-combat move when not at war with Japan.

[MarshmallowofWar]

TripleA Turn Summary for game: World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod, version: 2.0

Game History

Round: 9

Purchase Units - Russians
            Russians buy 1 armour, 2 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys; Remaining resources: 0 PUs;

Combat Move - Russians
            3 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
            1 artillery moved from Tambov to Bryansk
            1 infantry moved from Tambov to Bryansk

Combat - Russians
            Battle in Bryansk
                Russians attack with 1 artillery and 4 infantry
                Italians defend with 1 artillery and 1 infantry
                Russians win, taking Bryansk from Italians with 1 artillery and 4 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 7
                Casualties for Italians: 1 artillery and 1 infantry

Non Combat Move - Russians
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to Korea: 8 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from Amur: 12 infantry
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to Buryatia: 4 infantry
            EDIT: Turning off Edit Mode
            1 infantry moved from Russia to Bryansk
            5 infantry moved from Russia to Tambov
            1 submarine moved from 112 Sea Zone to 110 Sea Zone
            3 infantry moved from Amur to Buryatia
            1 infantry moved from Amur to Buryatia
            EDIT: Russians undo move 4.
            EDIT: Russians undo move 4.

Place Units - Russians
            1 armour, 2 infantry and 2 mech_infantrys placed in Russia

Turn Complete - Russians
            Russians collect 14 PUs; end with 14 PUs total
            Trigger Russians 3 Siberia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 16 PUs
            Trigger Russians 2 Persia Lend Lease Lane: Russians met a national objective for an additional 2 PUs; end with 18 PUs

triplea_38880_Rus9.tsvg

[simon33]

Balanced mod doesn’t allow you to ncm into China or Korea as ussr without being at war with Japan.

There are similar rules on the Europe side.

[MarshmallowofWar]

Yeah, and if that were in the Notes I would know that. It’s not.

[MarshmallowofWar]

So here’s the issue. According to the unwritten rules of this mod, the Russians can’t move into Korea (even if the US owns Korea) without being at war with Japan. If I had missed this in the rules, I would own it and suck it up. However, it’s not in the rules – I’ve been through them multiple times looking in vain for any text that says this.

This created a situation where on US8 I took only one unit to the Philippines and risked your one defender getting a hit (it did) and took the other unit to Korea on the assumption (totally valid assumption) that the rules functioned like Global. The rules do not function like Global, but that’s not documented in the Notes for the game. Had it been documented, I would have taken two units to the Philippines, not taken Korea, and reinforced the Philippines with ANZAC air cover.

I’m not willing to continue a game because of an unwritten rule that I had zero chance of knowing without reading through 20 pages of posts on the mod. I signed up to play a game, not do research into undocumented “features”.

That leaves us with a few options:

1. We can go back entirely to US8 and redo everything from there. Bonus for you: you would get to redo the horrificly devastating Caucasus battle, but bonus for me I would get to redo that horrificly devastating battle in sea zone 6 where you got seven hits on your first round of defense. And of course the US would take two units to the Philippines to increase the chances of getting the territory (since the Far East Russians are apparently useless without a declaration of war and sacrificing eligibility for an NO).
2. We can edit US8 into the current R9 turn, which would comprise the US collecting income and an NO for the Philippines but losing the Korea income. The US artillery from Korea would be in the Philippines and the transport from sea zone 6 would be sitting in the Philippines, and the ANZAC fighters would have reinforced the Philippines to provide air cover for the two transports.
3. We continue as the game has been edited.
4. We just abandon the game. Kind of a shame, because I’m 85% sure I’ve got you beat now that UK troops are killing German troops and you’ve basically gone mostly defensive with both Japan and Germany you’re still being outearned massively by the Allies, your total unit value is horrendously low compared to the Allies, and Japan has no battle fleet whatsoever and virtually zero chance of achieving a fleet that is capable of taking on the US. However, there are always the dice! (I’d be glad to start a global game, but I’m done with balanced mode because of the whole unwritten rule thing – I’ll never be certain there’s not some other weirdness that’s not documented.)

Any of those are agreeable to me. The decision is up to you. If none of those is acceptable to you, you can make other suggestions that I’ll gladly consider.

I have to get on an airplane in a few hours. I will have access to the forums, but I won’t have access to a PC for playing purposes. So we have a few days to sort this out.

Marsh

[simon33]

Why don’t we just edit the politics to have USSR DOW on Japan retrospectively?

[simon33]

Oh and regarding the rules being written down, refer to: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=37883.0

Note: An Axis power may not move its units into originally Russian territory unless that Axis power is at war with Russia. Also, when not at war with Japan, Russia may not move its units into any non-Russian Allied territory in Asia, other than Syria, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Persia, NorthWest Persia, and East Persia.

I’ll log a pull request to update the notes when I get a chance.

[MarshmallowofWar]

@simon33:

Why don’t we just edit the politics to have USSR DOW on Japan retrospectively?

If I wanted the USSR to declare war on Japan I wouldn’t have an issue with that. I don’t want the USSR to declare war.

[simon33]

@Marshmallow:

@simon33:

Why don’t we just edit the politics to have USSR DOW on Japan retrospectively?

If I wanted the USSR to declare war on Japan I wouldn’t have an issue with that. I don’t want the USSR to declare war.

Sounds a bit unfair that you want the benefits of the USSR DOW without the consequences. I’ll have a think about it.

[regularkid]

Not only is the restriction on Russian movement into Korea clearly stated in the Game Notes, but it is also hardcoded into the XML; so the game itself actually prevents you from NCMing Russian units into Korea unless Russia is already at war with Japan.

Thats why you had to use edit mode to make your illegal move.

“Non Combat Move - Russians
            Turning on Edit Mode
            EDIT: Adding units owned by Russians to Korea: 8 infantry
            EDIT: Removing units owned by Russians from Amur: 12 infantry.”

[regularkid]

I just loaded your game to confirm that the Game Notes do indeed disclose the Rule that you characterize as “unwritten.” Look at the Note in the “Russia” section.

“Note: An Axis power may not move its units into originally Russian territory unless that Axis power is at war with Russia. Also, when not at war with Japan, Russia may not move its units into any non-Russian Allied territory in Asia, other than Syria, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Persia, NorthWest Persia, and East Persia.”

This isn’t really a close call.

[simon33]

Thanks rk. Did marsh post a question somewhere?

[regularkid]

no. i was browsing through some games and came across yours. thought i’d chime in.

The logic for the new restriction is clear: it prevents Russia from gaming the Lend Lease mechanic by putting its units in Japan’s path and forcing Japan to be the aggressor.

Similarly, BM fixes the gamey trick of allowing Germany to move its units into italy-occupied Russian territory while still enjoying “trade with Russia.”

[MarshmallowofWar]

@regularkid:

I just loaded your game to confirm that the Game Notes do indeed disclose the Rule that you characterize as “unwritten.” Look at the Note in the “Russia” section.

“Note: An Axis power may not move its units into originally Russian territory unless that Axis power is at war with Russia. Also, when not at war with Japan, Russia may not move its units into any non-Russian Allied territory in Asia, other than Syria, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Persia, NorthWest Persia, and East Persia.”

This isn’t really a close call.

I’ll double check this when I return home. I don’t recall seeing it and I looked long and hard for it. I did find something that says Russia cannot move into China, but Korea is not China.

Marsh

[MarshmallowofWar]

@simon33:

Sounds a bit unfair that you want the benefits of the USSR DOW without the consequences. I’ll have a think about it.

If it’s in the Notes section and I’ve misread, that’s on me. If it’s not, then it’s a fair assumption that it plays like Global and it’s unfair to be deprived of a perfectly legal move in Global by an unwritten rule.

[simon33]

Refer to:
@regularkid:

I just loaded your game to confirm that the Game Notes do indeed disclose the Rule that you characterize as “unwritten.” Look at the Note in the “Russia” section.

“Note: An Axis power may not move its units into originally Russian territory unless that Axis power is at war with Russia. Also, when not at war with Japan, Russia may not move its units into any non-Russian Allied territory in Asia, other than Syria, Trans-Jordan, Iraq, Persia, NorthWest Persia, and East Persia.”

This isn’t really a close call.

[MarshmallowofWar]

Yeah, and people sell bridges in New York too. If I don’t see it for myself, I don’t believe it.

[simon33]

I think the proposal to retrospectively have USSR DOW on Japan is eminnently fair. More than fair even.