Thanks for reply CWO. Yes I want to make it more historical for the bomber. I do have Dive bombers in game that can pick a target and defender gets a no return shot on a certain die roll.
So I may have to make a single shot from a Stg. Bomber 1 d12 @4 and Naval 1 d12 @2.
I’ll have to play around with it.
Could have a Stg. Bomber have to do a Carpet Bombing attack and score a hit before the Bomber could SBR a IC or base. Ea Bomber rolls 2 or 3 d12s @2. Gets a hit then can roll there d8 for damage. Just some ideas. AAA gun would not get a shot at bomber until it SBRs a IC or base.
Another option.
Stg. Bomber 3 d12s @2 for ground and SBR attacks only.
1 d12 @2 against naval ship.
As I read up on this subject it was mainly to bomb IC railroads, cities etc. and carpet bombing an area for support for ground troops to move in after the bombing.
So now maybe only have bombers do a first strike attack on a territory for combat with a no return shot from the defender.
For now may go with
Stg Bomber
A 3d12s @2 FS only no return shot or no first shot and any die rolls of a 1 by attacker no return shot and a roll of 12 by the attacker has to take there own casualties and defender gets a return shot on attackers roll of 2.
A 1 d12 @2 against a naval ship
Keep SBR same old rule
IL any thoughts on Stg Bomber values ?
with d12?
Do nations have different costs and values for units?
@Imperious:
with d12?
Do nations have different costs and values for units?
Yes D12
Cost and values the same for all nations.
This is what Im going with for next game.
Stg Bomber
3 d12s @2 any rolls of a 1 no return shot
D2
M6
C10
DF 1
SBR 1 d8
H. Bomber
4 d12s @2 any rolls of a 1 no return shot
D2
M7
C12
DF 1
SBR 1 d10
The Tac Bomber is already a kicked up piece in game and now it will be bought more maybe both for ground and definitely for naval.
@Baron:
@SS:
I’m going with 3 NO victory points for Axis and 2 for Allies.
1 point - Axis total ICP income is 174 or higher.
1 point - Axis control the Mid East Oil countries of
1- Trans Jordan,
2- Syria,
3- Tehran,
4- Iraq,
5- Iran,
6- Georgia and
7- Caucasus.
1 point - Axis control Northern Manchuria, Sumutra, Borneo, Java for Japans oil.Allies
1 point - No German subs in Atlantic ocean.
1 point - No Japanese Capital ships in the Pacific.I will have Oil Derricks on map in these Mid East Oil countries and Dutch Islands showing what you need to capture and/or recapture to get 1 point bonus or remove 1 point bonus from victory points chart.
Seems pretty cool to me.
Combined with the others VCs and points, this will provided more flexibility on goals for both sides.
I wish I could play your game, I’m so far away…
Have a nice week end.
@SS:PTO Allies
3 Sydney
2 Hawaii
2 Calcutta
1 Manilla
1 L. A.
1 Hong KongPTO Axis
3 Tokyo
2 Shanghai
2 Peking
1 Changkhun
2 SaigonATO Allies
3 Moscow
3 London
2 Washington
2 Lengingrad
2 Stalingrad
1 Cairo
1 JohannsburgATO Axis
3 Berlin
3 Rome
3 Paris
1 Oslo
1 Milan
1 WarsawThe Allies start with 24 points and Axis with 22 points. First one to 30 points and holds for a turn wins the game.
@Baron:
@SS:
@Imperious:
W/o the math, what is the final unit attributes for transport?
You mean
D12Planes only attacking lone transports. All transports get a @2 at planes. No escape.
Ships only attacking lone transports. All surviving transports get a roll of @2 after all attackers roll after each round of combat.
Ships and planes attacking transports with escorts. Transports only shoot at planes@2.
Transport, always taken as last casualty, can only escape when alone and against warships only.
Otherwise, each get an AA roll against aircraft once per combat round, if any available.
I made a few changes for victory points. Axis total income is now 174 from 178.
Also added another Axis Victory point bonus for Dutch Islands for Japan oil.
Stg. Bombers going from
A8
D2
M6
C10
DF1
SBR 1 d8 to
A 3d12s @2 Roll of 1 no return shot
D2
M6
C10
DF1
SBR 1d8 damage
H. Bomber
A 4d12s @2 Roll of 1 no return shot
D2
M7
C12
DF1
SBR 1d10 damage
Will be testing again to see if changes make it a bit easier for the axis to win without changing a VC points. Then in 3 weeks will do a main group game.
The above Stg. Bomber values will also go against a naval ship.
3 d12s @2 roll of 1 no return shot.
Example
1 Stg. Bomber attacking a battleship. Bomber rolls a 9,1,1 Would kill the bomber with a no return shot.
1 Stg. Bomber attacking a battleship. Bomber rolls a 1,10,2 Battleship sunk with 1 return shot D8.
These new values for Bomber do give them a more of a chance to kill more pieces on a single roll. The bonus is accuracy. After a bunch of die rolling the ave comes out to 1 hit per 10 dice throwing for bomber. But of course thats where the attacker could out dice the defender. So while we play test this weekend will see. May have to lower stg bomber to 2d 12s @2. H. Bomber to 3d 12s @2
Or remove the no return shot period.
The no return shot is for bombers kinda doing the combined (same territory but just in front of troops or like further away from troops) shot before any ground troops attack.
Also didnt add the friendly kill value. Was gonna use a roll of 12 kills own attackers piece on ground but had more 12s come up in test rolls then 1s. Maybe have it where bomber rolls 3 die of 2,12,12. Equals 1 kill for the 2 and 1 friendly kill for only the double 12. But trying to keep it KISS.
Made 2 changes to the axis bonus points list. Made Mideast Oil territories down to 7 instead of 8 and added 1 bonus point for Japan if they control Northern Manchuria, Sumatra, Borneo and Java for Japans oil and refineries.
Edit: We didn’t use the Japan NO Bonus in the game report posted after this edit.
We got another game in Sat and the Axis won with 31 points that was held for 1 full turn. I tried a couple different things with US but Japan just to strong if you do not go to the Islands with Anzac and US together. Anyway we tried the new Stg. Bomber values of 3d12s @2 with roll of 1 no return shot for ea bomber. This worked out great with a few 1 rolls and some 2s. Now the bombers dont take over the game. A 1 or 2 bomber attacks are still pretty good but it seemed like the more dice you threw it went against you. You probably better off SBRing now. But you do still get hits with bombers. We had a couple no return shots on some naval ships so you do get rewarded with accuracy. Last ditch effort for me to get Paris was I attacked with 10 inf, 3 figs, 3 Stg. Bombers and 4 H. Bombers with 2 rounds of 25 dice rolling for bombers hoping for that last victory city to delay a axis victory. Of 50 dice I got 8 hits. So I got diced but a good roll would of been sweet. Chance you take. Also I SBR Berlin once with 4 H. Bombers with 4d 10s and rolled only 12 total damage. I got diced every where in this game but thats what it is.
Another 40 game in 2 weeks. Map pics and tech charts below.
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Pacific map we tried in game where if you controlled a 3 Dutch Island only with an oil derrick you were able to roll 1 d6 die for extra icps.
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In my game here I have Tac Bomber at
A7 First shoot no return shot on a roll of 2 or less.
D4 First shot no return shot on a roll of 2
M4
C10
DF1
SBR Germany only if they get there NA. 1d8 damage
When I SBR an AAA gun as far as historical in away, could the Tac bomber get close enough to AAA gun and kill it before it shoots back ? So if I roll a 2 for Tac Bomber it kills the AAA gun before it can defend. Ya No ?
Edit: I did find history on it. Ground fire could maybe hit plane but pretty much the Dive Bomber was immune to AAA fire because of the angle and explosions higher in sky. So
Tac bomber SBR an AAA gun will kill AAA gun on a roll of 2 or less with no return shot.
Tac Bomber rolls a 3-7 kills AAA gun after AAA gun gets its defense roll if AAA gun misses.
Stg Bomber
A3 d12s @2 roll of 1 no return shot (except AAA ) . Roll of double 12s 1 friendly kill.
D2
M6
C10
DF1
SBR 1 d8 damage
Ex : 2 Stg Bombers roll 3, 2. 12, 9, 1, 12 =
1 kill for roll of 1 no return shot for ground or ship only
1 kill for roll of 2
1 friendly kill for rolling 2 12s.
So also the Stg Bomber will not get its roll of 1 first strike shot due to that plane being higher up in air and AAA gun would get first shot at plane. But any roll of of 2 or less kills AAA gun if it misses.
Unlimited escorts and interceptors in game.
Risk and Reward so sweet !!! :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
We played another game and the Axis won in 7 turns. Moscow fell and Calcutta too. Allies tried a desperate shot at taking Rome. But the Transports from allies attacking Italys Navy cost allies 5 bombers. So they lacked air support. UK US did use there joint strike against Italys navy. US did have 4 H. Bombers for that last attack. SO with using the new Stg. Bomber rule the H. Bombers roll 4 d12 @2 roll of 1 no return shot and double 12s rolled kills your own guy for friendly fire. But as before the bombers do not take over game and the allies hopping for the bombers to get more hits than normal. Which didnt happen.
Japan does what Japan wants when the US goes Atlantic. The plan for Allies was to slow down Italy but it takes a bit longer to get to Africa and allies bought to many trans and inf.
We will have to see if Stg. Bomber new attack value is a bit to weak for the allies. But all like the Stg. Bomber rule. So it may be harder for the allies now where they need to get figs closer and not have the bomber A8 killing 50% of the time. You would think with 3 d12s rolled youd think you get more hits but you dont. Pics of maps at end of game.
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As far as Tech there was only 6 in this game. Below the ave. This had no affect on game. Axis got to 32 points at the end of turn 6. Allies got back 2 points for taking back Hawaii to still stay at 30 and at end of turn 7 was able to hold it for the win.
If Moscow wouldnt have fallen then the Axis would of needed to get 3 more points some where else.
China got a victory city. Sweet ! pic of charts below.
.png)
After thinking the last few days on the Stg Bomber values and reading up on some history on them and the Tac Bomber we are going with a new set of values for these 2 planes next game. New stats. Just be attack changes.
Stg. Bomber
A 3d12s @4 roll of 1 no return fire and any Double 12s is a Friendly kill. First round only
This is for the bomber dropping most or all of his payload while carpet bombing first round of combat.
Tac Bomber
A @7 roll of 4 or less no return fire and only for first round of combat. Any rounds after is a normal roll of 7 or less is a hit.
Dive and Tac only carried 1 torpedo (using both versions in game) so the torpedo drop is for first round only. Any 7 or less rolls after first round count as hits do to there payload of small bombs.
Any thoughts on this as far as being close to historical ?
CWO ?
@SS:
Dive and Tac only carried 1 torpedo (using both versions in game) so the torpedo drop is for first round only. Any 7 or less rolls after first round count as hits do to there payload of small bombs.
Any thoughts on this as far as being close to historical ?
CWO ?
I’m unfortunately not any good at converting historical information (my area of interest) into A&A unit combat values, so I can’t really help out with the specific numbers in your post. The one thing that caught my attention is this: “Dive and Tac only carried 1 torpedo (using both versions in game) so the torpedo drop is for first round only. Any 7 or less rolls after first round count as hits do to there payload of small bombs.” This seems to imply that surface-attack planes (such as dive bombers and torpedo bombers) simultaneously carried one big weapon plus several small bombs, and that they dropped them at different times during the same mission. That’s not correct as far as I know: they would either carry one big weapon or several small bombs, but not both at the same time, due to payload limits (and probaby weapon-attachment-point requirements). What you could do, if you want, is to give the player the option of selecting (and announcing in advance) what weapon type a surface-attack plane carries on a specific mission, and provide numbers reflecting that weapon type. The main WWII options would probably be:
1 large high-explosive bomb (useful for cratering a runway or demolishing a building, or for damaging non-armoured ships)
1 large armour-piercing bomb (useful for attacking bunkers on land and for damaging carriers and battleships and cruisers)
A cluster of small or medium fragmentation bombs (useful for attacking troops and unarmoured vehicles)
Twin pods of heavy auto-cannons (such as certain Stuka models had) or of rocket-launchers (which the Americans were fond of) for attacking tanks; hitting a tank with a large bomb was too tricky because it’s a small target, and hitting it with clusters of small bombs was ineffective against armour
Napalm bombs (U.S. only), for use against troops and non-reinforced buildings and vehicles (including tanks)
@CWO:
@SS:
Dive and Tac only carried 1 torpedo (using both versions in game) so the torpedo drop is for first round only. Any 7 or less rolls after first round count as hits do to there payload of small bombs.
Any thoughts on this as far as being close to historical ?
CWO ?I’m unfortunately not any good at converting historical information (my area of interest) into A&A unit combat values, so I can’t really help out with the specific numbers in your post. The one thing that caught my attention is this: “Dive and Tac only carried 1 torpedo (using both versions in game) so the torpedo drop is for first round only. Any 7 or less rolls after first round count as hits do to there payload of small bombs.” This seems to imply that surface-attack planes (such as dive bombers and torpedo bombers) simultaneously carried one big weapon plus several small bombs, and that they dropped them at different times during the same mission. That’s not correct as far as I know: they would either carry one big weapon or several small bombs, but not both at the same time, due to payload limits (and probaby weapon-attachment-point requirements). What you could do, if you want, is to give the player the option of selecting (and announcing in advance) what weapon type a surface-attack plane carries on a specific mission, and provide numbers reflecting that weapon type. The main WWII options would probably be:
1 large high-explosive bomb (useful for cratering a runway or demolishing a building, or for damaging non-armoured ships)
1 large armour-piercing bomb (useful for attacking bunkers on land and for damaging carriers and battleships and cruisers)
A cluster of small or medium fragmentation bombs (useful for attacking troops and unarmoured vehicles)
Twin pods of heavy auto-cannons (such as certain Stuka models had) or of rocket-launchers (which the Americans were fond of) for attacking tanks; hitting a tank with a large bomb was too tricky because it’s a small target, and hitting it with clusters of small bombs was ineffective against armour
Napalm bombs (U.S. only), for use against troops and non-reinforced buildings and vehicles (including tanks)
Thanks CWO again. I was basically looking for the correct history factor if I was wrong. I must have mis read the term 1 torpedo or clusters of bombs. If I give the tac or dive bomber the 1 shot with the big bomb or torpedo shot of a @7 roll of @4 or less no return shot and no more shots after 1st round, I believe the player would rather probably just choose to attack @7 something with a straight up attack number every round instead.
I’ll work on it.
We are going to try these values in next game based on history and a happy medium for the Tac-Dive Bomber. With 1 Tac-Dive Bomber representing 10 - 30 planes ea (?) will make the bomber have the 2 types of bombs on planes. New values.
Stg. Bomber
A 3d12s @4 Roll of 1 no return shot. Against ground only
For ea roll of 2 12s = 1 friendly kill
1 Round of Combat only
A 3d12s @2 Roll of 1 no return shot. Against naval only
1 Round of Combat only
D2
M6
C10
DF1
SBR- IC, Ports, Forts 1 d8 damage
SBR- AAA gun only. Roll of 1 kills AAA gun before it fires.
H. Bomber
A 4d12s @4 Same as Stg, Bomber above.
A 4d12s @2 Same as Stg. Bomber above.
D2
M7
C12
SBR- IC, Ports, Forts 1 d10
SBR- AAA gun only. Roll of 1 kills AAA gun before it can fire.
Tac-Dive Bomber
A7 Roll of 2 or less picks target
D4
M4
C10
DF1
SBR- Ports, Forts 1 d8 damage
SBR- AAA gun. Roll of 1-2 kills AAA gun before it can shoot.
Will give these values a shot in next game.
Hi SS,
I read about some DeHavilland mosquitoes destroying AA batteries but not about StB.
It is your game, but I feel like all your bombers can be more specialized.
Here is a few examples to explain what I mean.
That way, each purchase of unit type get a greater emphasis on a given way of tactical combat.
TcB better vs Tank or AAA.
Heavy Bombers 4 rolls at carpet bombing (more than 1 hit per round possible but only first combat round) but StB can roll each round (because they were use in tactical situation more often).
StB vs Hbombers,
Less dogfight machineguns vs more mguns (tailgunners and ballguners).
A bit usable on Tactical mission vs only for strategic targets D12 dice:
(Def 4 or 3 vs def 2)
TcB (dive and torpedoes and recon) was very useful on Carriers
Defense 4 is low and compromise defense compared to all Fgs on Carriers.
Etc.
Hes back. :-)
If u look further back in thread we had Stg bombers and tacs roll every round.
Stg bomber
A 3 d12s @2 roll of 1 no return shot double 12s = 1 friendly kill. ground and naval.
May raise the A to @3. In game Stg bomber only ave 1 hit for every 10 dice.
But naval A would stay at @2
H bomber
A 4 d12s @2 roll of 1 no return shot. Ground and naval.
D3 probably make instead of 2
Tac bomber
A7 roll of 2 or less no return shot. Ground and naval
This way, at the time I was thinking of all bombers being rewarded with all kinds of missions together. Like a happy medium.
