Thank you
Pearl Harbor
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@Young:
Why not converge as much Japanese navy that can reach into the Hawaii sea zone, with the American ships already there (they’re neutral powers after all). America wouldn’t be able to attack US1, the American ships wouldn’t be able to escape far, and America can only build 3 units off San Francisco US1, leaving them sitting ducks for a J2 attack (I call it a crowbar)… anyone care to do the math on that?
I think you’re forgetting that the American ships can retreat to the coast of San Francisco and, without the use of the Hawaiian naval base, the Japanese ships are out of range. On J2 you could potentially take Hawaii, but America can block that with a destroyer off the coast of Midway if they’re clever. By J3 you can certainly take Hawaii… but by that point America has had a couple of turns to build, you’re outside the reach of your land based air, you don’t have the backing of the SE Asian economy, and the British, ANZAC and Chinese are all looking to put a knife in your back.
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I’ve tried it but wouldn’t do it again. I eventually held Hawaii and got my capital ships repaired in place, J3 I think.
Then you’ve put all that shipping into something that only delivers 6IPC while killing an additional 3 warships + a TT. Then your SZ19 + SZ33 fleet don’t have dominion over ANZAC and the UK in the Java sea and you can really only claim one money island per turn or suicide a TT per island - they might take it back.
Specifically with the proposed attack, one strat bomber + one cruiser is far, far too weak to take down the Prince of Wales (UK BB). There’s a significant chance of it living and then repairing itself UK1. Better to hit it hard with 2SBs + cruiser + fighter (Formosa). That way you have a significant chance of only taking one hit and something like a 10% chance of getting it with no loss.
@Young:
Why not converge as much Japanese navy that can reach into the Hawaii sea zone, with the American ships already there (they’re neutral powers after all). America wouldn’t be able to attack US1, the American ships wouldn’t be able to escape far, and America can only build 3 units off San Francisco US1, leaving them sitting ducks for a J2 attack (I call it a crowbar)… anyone care to do the math on that?
I was going to say that the USA can then converge their entire USAF on your fleet but that assumes they can attack you. However, the USA can move its Philippines two ships within range (perhaps they might be picked off by other Japanese forces). Let’s look at it:
USA SZ26 has: 2Cruisers, 2DD, BB, sub, CV, up to 5 fighters including the scramble.
IJN has: 3CV, 6planes, 3DD, sub, Cruiser, BB.Looks to be a favourable attack (92% +31TUV swing) and more favourable when you can throw in some more forces from SZ6 J2.
But the USN can just as easily retreat to SZ10, buy a CV and fly fighters to it which means the IJN needs to have already bought reinforcements J1. USA get to see the reinforcements which can possibly be brought in before needing to buy anything. Fighters/tacs bought in Central or Eastern USA can help support the attack BTW so long as they can land on a CV.
If I was playing USA against this move, I’d move the Philippines ships to SZ54, buy a CV and 2 subs in SZ10, a few tacs and retreat to SZ10. The IJN would need to bug out and couldn’t reach either the Carolines or Japan. Presumably they could still take Hawaii with planes and a suiciding TT from Japan, but it could be taken back so easily. In fact, I’d be inclined to use the SZ26 TT to take the 2 inf off Hawaii towards the Money islands via SZ54.
Sure, there is still some theoretical risk that Japan will declare on USA but not UK/ANZAC but that is such a weak move that if Japan do it, it’s a victory in itself.
A stronger move for Japan might be to move a smaller fleet to SZ25 off Midway and end with one to three TTs in SZ6. At least the IJN are still within one turn of SZ6. Doing it that way threatens Hawaii because the planes on the CVs can support the land assault and only risks transports really. USA still need to respond in some way and probably will need to do a naval build up in SZ10. Something I don’t want to do US1.
Hmm, I’ve been struggling with my Japanese opening at sea. I think going through this has been helpful. If Japan can hold the USA in SZ10, that is good for Germany as well as Japan.
I think you’re forgetting that the American ships can retreat to the coast of San Francisco and, without the use of the Hawaiian naval base, the Japanese ships are out of range. On J2 you could potentially take Hawaii, but America can block that with a destroyer off the coast of Midway if they’re clever. By J3 you can certainly take Hawaii… but by that point America has had a couple of turns to build, you’re outside the reach of your land based air, you don’t have the backing of the SE Asian economy, and the British, ANZAC and Chinese are all looking to put a knife in your back.
Yes.
But I’d already written the above.
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Long time stalker, first time poster.
My group has played a few games with a PH. My favorite is below (I think this is similar to what Amalec describes):
- SS, DD, 2ftr, 2tac to 26. Need to take out all navy here. This fight looks good with or without scramble; US scrambling here is on average trading fighters with Japan.
- NCM BB, 2CV to 31 (around Wake Is.). Land planes here, replenish any lost from Japan.
- NCM DD as blocker to 26 to block counter attack.
With this PH, I can still take Philippines, Borneo, FIC, take out the UK battleship, and hit other standard J1 targets, and take rest of money islands on J2.
I really don’t like trying to take Hawaii. It uses up a bunch of units that you need elsewhere for a successful J1. It brings the fight closer to the US, and that’s a losing battle for Japan. You can’t hold it, and the few IPCs it gets you aren’t worth it. It’s basically the London of the Pacific; even if the Axis can take it, it’s so close to the US that it’s hard to hold. At least with London you get a capital and an IC. But I digress. By landing in 31, there’s not as much need for a naval base since you’re 1 move away from the Carolines. I don’t like the 3 transport buy with this opener either; theres on need to threaten a Hawaii you don’t want to take, and I think this play is mutually exclusive with a J4 India crush (I don’t think your remaining navy can’t prevent blockers UK from going up), so I prefer the IC.
The reason I like I like doing PH as a part of my J1 is because it uses a lot of units that I didn’t find myself using much on J1 and J2. You take out a few US units without giving up much; not a huge swing IPC-wise, but it helps. It keeps US away from Hawaii on US1 because Japan can hit 26 with a lot of material on J2. On the receiving end, as the US, I’ve never felt weaker on US1 than after this, On J2, the fleet in 31 can move to the Carolines and be useful/projecting power again.
The downsides as I see it are that the DD blocker you need could be used on the 50/50 attack vs the DD/trans on Anzac J1 (and it is nice when that battle goes well!). Keeping nearly so much IPC in the middle of the pacific for a turn probably gives some opportunities for India or China; we couldn’t find much though; even with 4 planes in the middle of the pacific, that still leaves, what, 15 fighters/tacs for Asia? India and China have had a hard time being too aggressive against that, but they can probably get a transport kill you take the money islands J2 since it’s tough to adequately defend everything. Finally, on the actual PH itself, if US scrambles there’s a ~17% chance Japan straight up looses this battle and the US doesn’t take the cruiser as a casualty, so Japan can’t put up the DD blocker in NCM; I think that would end up devastating for Japan.since SZ31 could get hit hard.
Anyway, this is my favorite J1 because it maximizes using what Japan has on the board. I think there are a lot of great arguments against a J1, but I say if you’re gonna J1, J1 big.
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@zergxies:
Long time stalker, first time poster.
My group has played a few games with a PH. My favorite is below (I think this is similar to what Amalec describes):
- SS, DD, 2ftr, 2tac to 26. Need to take out all navy here. This fight looks good with or without scramble; US scrambling here is on average trading fighters with Japan.
- NCM BB, 2CV to 31 (around Wake Is.). Land planes here, replenish any lost from Japan.
- NCM DD as blocker to 26 to block counter attack.
I think this is better than moving your fleet to occupy SZ26. I have one question though: If the USA scrambles out of Hawaii, why would you replenish losses from Japan? The absolute maximum they can get past your blocker is 1 SB 1 tac 3 fighters. The second CV is needed when they can throw in a couple more fighters from Hawaii. You could use the Cruiser, BB and 1 CV and 2 fighters. If you also take Wake Island, that keeps out 2 more fighters and allows you to take the hit on the CV before the fighters. I guess the problem with taking Wake is that it robs either Philippines from its second TT or Borneo.
And what is the problem you are referring to that you can’t use the SZ33 DD to hit the ANZAC DD? SZ6 starts with 2DDs which cover your attacks.
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I think this is better than moving your fleet to occupy SZ26. I have one question though: If the USA scrambles out of Hawaii, why would you replenish losses from Japan? The absolute maximum they can get past your blocker is 1 SB 1 tac 3 fighters. The second CV is needed when they can throw in a couple more fighters from Hawaii. You could use the Cruiser, BB and 1 CV and 2 fighters. If you also take Wake Island, that keeps out 2 more fighters and allows you to take the hit on the CV before the fighters. I guess the problem with taking Wake is that it robs either Philippines from its second TT or Borneo.
If USA scrambles, I think you could get away with a fewer fighter or 2. But keep in mind Anzac can hit SZ31 with its 3 fighters and land on Wake to mop up damaged units. I like playing a little safer here especially b/c of the tough order-of-loss decisions that would have to made if the US attacked. I’ve played around with taking Wake, but ultimately decided it wasn’t worth a big risk on the Philippines or delaying the IPCs in the money islands.
And what is the problem you are referring to that you can’t use the SZ33 DD to hit the ANZAC DD? SZ6 starts with 2DDs which cover your attacks.
Good question - I use 1 of those Japan DDs in PH, the 2nd Japan DD is the Hawaii blocker, and the DD from the Carolines moves to SZ42 (Java) as a blocker to prevent India’s navy from taking out my Borneo transport. When taking out the UK BB in 37, I bring my Formosa fighter, 2 SBR, and CA, and I lose the fighter if the BB hits. That keeps naval units in 37 and 42, keeping my Borneo transport safe, and giving me a good shot at the remaining 3 money islands on J2. Maybe that’s overly complicated and there’s another way of accomplishing this I haven’t seen though. This entire opener is built around giving Japan those islands and the economy it needs to win in a J1 scenario; it does mean no extra DD for the 50/50 on Anzac though.
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I have done PH multiple times, but it is to reduce the US fleet, not to take Hawaii. You need a dd to survive battle so the US San Fran fleet can’t counter attack. I also like to take Wake and have ftrs ready to replace losses if they scramble, and/or try a combined US/Anz air attack.
This move is to take out the US Hawaiian fleet, and threatens both Hawaii and Anz (not to take Hawaii). It forces the US to build Pac because the US feels weak, giving Germany some time, even w/J1 attack. You are killing the equivalent to a US entire buy, so it sets them back a round or two. You can still do all the normal J1 stuff, but it takes till J3 to get all the money isles. I normally buy 3 transports because I like to plop down an IC on FIC and sometimes Kwangtung J2 to keep the China battle going, and eventually take India (while the US is rebuilding).
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How can the Borneo TT be hit if the Cruiser is blocking SZ37 and Philippines is taken?
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How can the Borneo TT be hit if the Cruiser is blocking SZ37 and Philippines is taken?
Can’t the UK DD in SZ39 go SZ39 -> SZ41 -> SZ42 -> SZ43? Doesn’t that get 3 moves because of India naval base?
If I’m the UK, I’d definitely consider that move since it makes it impossible to take all 4 islands J2.
Anzac then has to decide if it wants to sacrifice a TT, 2 ground units, and its 3 fighters to deny Japan the money islands bonus by landing on Java J2. Even then, Japan can hit with 1 inf 1 art (from Phil), 1 ftr + 1 tac from SZ35, and the 2 strategic bombers that landed in Siam after destroying the UK BB J1. That’s still good odds for Japan.
So based on this, I think it’s not unrealistic to have Japan get the islands J2 and still set back the US a little with PH.
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Moving the whole fleet to Pearl Harbor seems to be a good way for the Japanese to fail in Mainland Asia and the Money Islands. I personally prefer a less aggressive option of stacking a fleet in the Carolines which makes the Allies hesitant about a potential raid in Pear Harbor or Sydney. A small mistake by the Allies and you can wreak havoc. If they play perfectly, you still get sail into the Money Islands on J2. The only weakness is that it takes an extra round to project power towards India and China.
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@zergxies:
How can the Borneo TT be hit if the Cruiser is blocking SZ37 and Philippines is taken?
Can’t the UK DD in SZ39 go SZ39 -> SZ41 -> SZ42 -> SZ43? Doesn’t that get 3 moves because of India naval base?
Right, yes. I think in the past I’ve been inclined to defend the Borneo SZ with the Carolines fleet rather than put down a blocker which can die easily.
I guess that’s the other problem with hitting Wake Is. You can’t then claim all the money islands J2. Hmm, USA really shouldn’t scramble then. If they scramble you can possibly avoid bringing in the second carrier.
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This is from tef, my youtube subscriber who inspired my to create this thread in his behalf… _Really appreciate the huge assist on the A&A Forum. Will try to set up an A&A account this weekend. Til then, please pass on to Taamvan, Zerxzees, Simon33, T-Wrecks and Wild Bill for their intriguing comments and thoughts on a J1 attack on PH. Marshmellow of War helped bring my mind back to the Strat level about the whole thing. “How’s this help me to win?”
Perhaps it’s the idea of throwing USN and Army Air Corps off track for several turns. From the European theater, I intend to apply pressure on Calcutta from the other direction prior to starting war with RU in opening volley of Round 4. Hoping to press Italy into Persia ASACP.
My concern about parking off Wake Is with the bulk of the fleet is getting stuck there if US dares a direct attack from SZ 10 or just builds in SZ 10 setting the trap if I try to take PH on J2. I want to keep my fleet moving on to the next objective.
Difficult for JP to determine the right amount of force being applied to Allies in PAC. However, I’m convinced too much is being used vs PHL in J1 and the opportunity to inflict pain on an inferior force in SZ 26 on J1 seems to be an imperative. The Axis must act quickly and boldly in A&A. Any waiting game they play is doomed to failure later on.
If IJN does not use overwhelming force on SZ 26 during J1, USN in SZ10 will smash them. However, perhaps the feign of a HI landing by JPN on J2 will be enough to bring the NZL fighters up and allow Japan main TF to press on to strangle ANZAC. JPN proper is just too easy to defend. Especially with the extra turn afforded by putting out a DD as a blocker so that means moving IJN out to swallow the Indo-AP. The smaller IJN TF that took the PHL can move on to secure the Spice Islands and then, together with the IJF in SEA, smash the UK feet in BIOT.
If America chickens out and runs, then I take HI and deprive them of 5 IPCs. I might even consider a small diversion to take Central America killing the US of another 5 IPCs for a turn while I haul ass on towards NZL.
If none of this works, I’ll definitely try the suggestion of a major blocking and landing force to FIC on J1 and then smash the UK fleet on J2.
Aloha Nui Loa,
Tef_ -
Tef - with a BB and 2 loaded carriers off Wake and a DD in SZ26, there is no attack the US can make turn 1. I expect the US to build in SZ10. Pull back to the Carolines J2 and make your next move from there. It is not advantageous to Japan to be trading units in SZ26. Your objective is to expand quickly, and the money lies West, not in Hawaii. If I’m the US and I see you take Hawaii, I laugh and smash your navy the next turn and take it back. US can keep doing that all game, it’s Japan that needs to spend its IPCs elsewhere winning the game in China and India.
As to how it helps you win - I think a turn 1 PH - and then falling back to your areas of strength - can take out some key units and get a favorable IPC trade while still achieving Japan’s main J1 goals. Taking the money islands J2 turns Japan into an economic powerhouse. Anyway just my take on things, there are plenty of ways to play the game (and I’m sure I haven’t found most of them!). Notably I’m assuming more-standard play on the Europe side - I haven’t played many games where G doesn’t invade Russia until round 4.
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Very cool thing for you to do Young Grasshopper.
Very nicely said zergxies
We know the benefits of doing a J1 attack, besides it simply being a lot of fun for the Japanese player. You get to kill a lot of allied units, take some territory expanding your empire (income) and it puts the Pac allies on their heals. When you also take out the Hawaiian fleet J1 it puts the US player under more presser. They feel the need to respond in some form, but they don’t have very many naval assets left. They are pretty much forced to stay in port, and build. I normally stage at Wake J1, then move to Caroline’s J2 to keep the Anz guessing. At some point I will be at Phil to set up def if the US goes all out Pac.
The Germans on the other hand are generally not too happy w/J1 attack because it unleashes the USA to go Europe if they choose (the Germans don’t want early US landings in their sandbox). When the US losses the Hawaiian fleet though they really can’t afford to move the San Fran fleet through the canal, and build Europe, because there would be absolutely nothing to contend w/Japan, and the other Pac allies are too weak w/o the presence of the USA.
It gives both axis powers a little more wiggle room. It makes it hard for the US to go Europe and respond to a real Sea Lion threat. I think it would also really mess with a Spanish Beachhead too w/o those extra naval assets.
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I don’t know how much different a J1 vs J2 attack is for the Germans. There is precious little USA can do with its starting forces other than flying the SB to London to do some bombing. Assuming one or more U-Boats lived in SZ106, to move out of SZ101 unless it’s to Brazil means a coin flip to lose the Cruiser and TT, or tie up the UK DD from SZ109.
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If you plan this move and you are playing both boards why not use 1 sub from germany to attack the US fleet as well.
Its a coinflip but if you win US will lose convoy damage and has no atlantic fleet at all. In that case US loses more then 72 in units which is more then it makes in 1 turn when at war.
And the UK has to use 1 of its destroyers to take it out if able. If you attack the destroyer off canada and win you will be doing convoy damage to the US at least 2 turns, and if they dont spend in the atlantic you keep doing damage for a longer time still.
That’s something to think about, no different then attacking the Brit cruiser in sz91, except you also get a chance to sink a tpt too. Then it is really only UK to worry about until the US figures out what the hell just happened :?
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There is a big danger for the Axis to start an escalating Naval race in the Atlantic and Pacific. Eventually they will lose the contest since the Allies have superior economies. The focus needs to be on Moscow/Middle East/Egypt for the European Axis and Money Islands/India for the Japanese. Other moves can help buy them a bit of time to achieve the major goals, but keep in mind that the clock is ticking. Every turn that the Allies significantly out-earn the Axis is one turn closer to eventual Allied victory. The balance mod makes the challenge even tougher: the increased Russian economy makes it much tougher to invade Moscow without a total focus on the endeavor.
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Well said ABH.
Its about those carriers and how you position them. You start with 3, usually need 1 to guard the home islands during war.
If you lose 2, or send them to Australia or Hawaii, that doesn’t leave any extras to cover SZ 6 AND the Spice Fleet. Even if you buy an extra one, by J3, if you don’t have 2 carriers in the Indian Ocean, you can risk coming in too light or leaving Japan undefended.
Doing anything other than the Vanilla Program with Japan J1Spice costs you $$ and time. You cant put a 40IPC econ up against a 70 IPC one with 4 little buddies in the theatre.
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Well said ABH.
Its about those carriers and how you position them. You start with 3, usually need 1 to guard the home islands during war.
If you lose 2, or send them to Australia or Hawaii, that doesn’t leave any extras to cover SZ 6 AND the Spice Fleet. Even if you buy an extra one, by J3, if you don’t have 2 carriers in the Indian Ocean, you can risk coming in too light or leaving Japan undefended.
Doing anything other than the Vanilla Program with Japan J1Spice costs you $$ and time. You cant put a 40IPC econ up against a 70 IPC one with 4 little buddies in the theatre.
Sure, but doing PH doesn’t mean losing carriers. The fleet in the Philippines is more than sufficient against the 1CA 1DD that both India and Anzac have. As long as you cover your Borneo transport, nothing they do can stop you from taking money islands J2.
I completely agree that Japan can’t focus on a naval war if it wants to win, but doing PH gives you a favorable trade and does push the US back - you don’t need a CV to cover SZ6 if the nearest fleet is 2+ turns away! If I thought PH meant giving up economy, I would probably be against it, but as I see it, it’s using part of the fleet that wasn’t giving you IPCs anyway.
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zergxies, you are spot on. Only difference is on J2 I might take Malaya because it is a nice place to drop a 2nd IC, and stops the Anz NO. Then finish off the money islands J3, but either way you are getting to your economic goals (if you waited til J3 to attack you would be at the same place, but the Pac allies would have a lot more income, and units). The Pac allies are still losing income through early invasions, and NOs, as you gain income like any other J1 attack. They have also lost a lot of units, but now the USA has taken more of a beating losing both the Phil and PH fleets (they have no cannon fodder). At the very least you have bought your self a round of time, much more if the US decides to go Europe. The US is much weaker then w/o hitting PH, so the US reaction time is stalled on both boards, and they are really torn about what direction to take. I’m considering Shadows suggestion of hitting sz 101 w/German sub next time to really push the envelope lol.
To Arthur Bomber Harris, I agree that the Axis can’t win a naval race with Western Allies in the long term. Adding Pearl Harbor to J1 attack (then backing off to Caroline’s J2 in a defensive/offensive posture) levels the playing field some from the get go though. The allies have some catching up to do for parity on both maps, much less the over whelming naval strength that they need (gives the axis more time).
The Germans building a carrier on G1 has been a debate for as long as I can remember (pros and cons). I don’t think it sparks a naval race though because the Allies are going to build navy regardless (they may need to build a little more now). Yea a naval build can stall Barbarossa especially if the allies get ftrs to Moscow (which could happen anyway). I will say though I don’t like to build all ground G1 because it tips your hand too much IMO, and the UK is off the hook. I would rather pressure the Russians to give up their forward ICs (bringing in some art/inf through the Baltic as I take Leningrad) so I can build the units I need to finish the job on Red territory.
Some type of naval build (and keeping the German bb alive) sends a message to UK to max def London limiting what they can do on the first turn. It will keep the Baltic fleet a float longer, meaning the Germans keep Scandinavia longer. Building a carrier could be the single reason that the allies don’t go north to invade, because the amount of resources it will take to kill the Baltic fleet, or make a landing stick. Plus a carrier (and a tpt or two) allows you to easily take Leningrad early, or even convoy UK sz106 if they went through with Taranto (convoy and SBR raid can really hurt the UK, but is a trade off to amphibing Russia, and comes w/some risk).
People seem to think that a carrier build is mostly for defensive purposes. Here is another point that I really haven’t heard much. I also look at a carrier build as extending the range of my ftrs when I want to be aggressive. It allows you to get planes into battles you couldn’t w/o a carrier (mostly at sea). A carrier can also allow you to have long range German Kami’s (if the planes die the carrier doesn’t have to risk picking them up). The allies have to account for that especially if I’m going Dark Skys bmr bulilds (which is a whole different topic).
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Its about those carriers and how you position them. You start with 3, usually need 1 to guard the home islands during war.
If you lose 2, or send them to Australia or Hawaii, that doesn’t leave any extras to cover SZ 6 AND the Spice Fleet. Even if you buy an extra one, by J3, if you don’t have 2 carriers in the Indian Ocean, you can risk coming in too light or leaving Japan undefended.
Doing anything other than the Vanilla Program with Japan J1Spice costs you $$ and time. You cant put a 40IPC econ up against a 70 IPC one with 4 little buddies in the theatre.
I have actually left sea zone 6 undefended with no ill consequences other than a bit of convoy disruption. Do a defensive build in Japan proper to make sure it doesn’t fall and off goes the fleet with loaded carriers. The US moves in and perhaps takes Korea, I take India on my next turn and the US convoy disrupts me but the gain from India offsets it, and two turns later I am back in sea zone 6 (having destroyed or run off the US fleet because it cannot simply stand against a prepared IJN if the US is splitting its efforts). If the US has a bunch of loaded transports, you might need to consider a second round of defensive building before you move (but if the US has that many transports in the Pacific ready to kill Japan you might consider just killing the US fleet and then going to kill India!)
Obviously this depends on the strength of the US fleet, but as I said I have used it with great effect. It is especially good early in the game if the US is going Germany first.
Marsh
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