@Ragnell804 gg - I pinned it on 33% Moscow and I know what/why etc… go again?

@VictoryFirst Game History

Round: 6 Turn Complete - Russians

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Game History

Round: 6 Purchase Units - British British buy 4 artilleries and 6 infantry; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - British 6 infantry moved from Denmark to Germany 2 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Germany 3 transports moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to English Channel Sea Zone 3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone 1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from United Kingdom to Atlantic Sea Zone 1 artillery, 3 infantry and 2 transports moved from Atlantic Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 4 artilleries and 6 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Germany 1 armour moved from Tunisia to Egypt Combat - British Battle in Germany British attack with 4 artilleries and 14 infantry Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory and 26 infantry British roll dice for 1 destroyer in Germany, round 2 : 0/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits British roll dice for 4 artilleries and 14 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 5/18 hits, 4.33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 26 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 9/26 hits, 8.67 expected hits 9 infantry owned by the British lost in Germany 5 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany British roll dice for 4 artilleries and 5 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 4/9 hits, 2.83 expected hits Germans roll dice for 21 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 5/21 hits, 7.00 expected hits 5 infantry owned by the British lost in Germany 4 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany British roll dice for 4 artilleries in Germany, round 4 : 1/4 hits, 1.33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 17 infantry in Germany, round 4 : 8/17 hits, 5.67 expected hits 4 artilleries owned by the British lost in Germany 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany Germans win with 16 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -28 Casualties for British: 4 artilleries and 14 infantry Casualties for Germans: 10 infantry Non Combat Move - British Place Units - British 4 artilleries and 6 infantry placed in United Kingdom Turn Complete - British British collect 34 PUs; end with 34 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Germans regular : 0.67 British regular : 1.17

Game History

Round: 6 Purchase Units - Americans Americans buy 3 artilleries, 5 infantry and 2 transports; Remaining resources: 0 PUs; Combat Move - Americans 1 artillery and 7 infantry moved from United States to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone 1 artillery, 7 infantry and 4 transports moved from U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone to Mid-Atlantic Sea Zone 1 transport moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone 1 artillery, 7 infantry and 4 transports moved from Mid-Atlantic Sea Zone to Celtic Sea Sea Zone 1 transport moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to English Channel Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone 2 transports moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Celtic Sea Sea Zone 1 artillery and 7 infantry moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to United Kingdom 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 2 infantry moved from Denmark to Germany 2 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Germany 2 fighters moved from United Kingdom to Germany 1 transport moved from Baltic Sea Sea Zone to English Channel Sea Zone 2 destroyers moved from Baltic Sea Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 1 infantry moved from Poland to Germany 1 bomber moved from Denmark to Germany Combat - Americans Battle in Germany Americans attack with 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 5 infantry Germans defend with 1 aaGun, 1 factory and 16 infantry Germans roll AA dice in Germany : 1/3 hits, 0.50 expected hits 1 fighter owned by the Americans lost in Germany Americans roll dice for 2 destroyers in Germany, round 2 : 1/2 hits, 0.67 expected hits Americans roll dice for 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 5 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 2/7 hits, 2.00 expected hits Germans roll dice for 16 infantry in Germany, round 2 : 4/16 hits, 5.33 expected hits 4 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Germany 3 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany Americans roll dice for 1 bomber, 1 fighter and 1 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 2/3 hits, 1.33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 13 infantry in Germany, round 3 : 5/13 hits, 4.33 expected hits 1 fighter owned by the Americans, 1 infantry owned by the Americans and 1 bomber owned by the Americans lost in Germany 2 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Germany Germans win with 11 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is -39 Casualties for Americans: 1 bomber, 2 fighters and 5 infantry Casualties for Germans: 5 infantry Non Combat Move - Americans Place Units - Americans 3 artilleries and 5 infantry placed in United States 2 transports placed in U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone Turn Complete - Americans Americans collect 43 PUs; end with 43 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : 1.00 Germans AA : 0.50 Germans regular : -0.67

That’s the game. If you start the next one I will make my move later tonight. Need to do some things at work.

@DoManMacgee

Yes, I think OOB Europe is imbalanced in many ways. After the right strategy became apparent, so far I have only lost 1 game as Germany with OOB rules out of 13 games in total, and that loss was mainly caused by a combination of surprise (my opponent put 4 infantry in Bessarabia and I had never faced that bid before) and terrible dice.

Let’s play with the balance. Right now I am testing with Ragnell and TGC with an additional German infantry removed from Romania, not sure if you have tried that out before but it seems to have a positive effect on the balance.

@The_Good_Captain Yeah. Similar to what I tried Vs. VictoryFirst in our game (which also regrettably didn’t work out) was the last-ditch-effort to leave Moscow and attack back into it instead of defending. That would have at least eliminated the German air-factor (or alternatively let me throw all the allied air at Berlin), but of course that’s still grasping at straws and did not work out.

@Karl7 …only bc the British did so awful. Otherwise, as you pointed out earlier - the game was 60% Allies going into the allied side of turn 6…

This is one of the points we uncovered early on: If the Western Allies are ‘doing it right’, the Germans will be forced to fight the battle of Moscow on G6 followed immediately by the battle of Berlin. And they must win both. The allies only need to win one of them to win the game - the Germans need to win both.

1d1000<=1: 2; Hits: 0
1d1000<=1: 25; Hits: 0

@VictoryFirst said in AndrewAAgamer (Allies) vs. Germany (Ragnell804):

@AndrewAAGamer said in AndrewAAgamer (Allies) vs. Germany (Ragnell804):

Would you be able to calculate when we get Bad dice or Very Bad dice in two or more areas? That should be important too.

I think what will be difficult here is defining what territories belong which areas. For example a battle in G28, should you include it under Caen or St. Lo? Units there can go either way. An approach like this is almost impossible.

I guess I wasn’t clear. I am not looking for you to peruse the game I just had and figure out what the dice variable was. I was hoping, if possible, due to your math skills, if sometime in the near future you would be able to tell me certain odds like you just did. For example:

Odds of at least 1 area area with Bad dice Odds of at least 2 areas with Bad dice Odds of at least 1 area with Very Bad dice Odds of at least 2 areas of Very Bad dice

That way, once, and if, we can confirm the Allies win 100% of the time with even dice, or dice favorable to the Allies we could assign percentages to the varies bad dice and come up with some estimate of how often the Germans would win. BTW if you did that it would be awesome if you used 16% / 68% /16% as the low, normal and high parameters.

All I want to test for is IF the Allies get fair dice would they win every time.

Alright, that sounds logical, taking one step at a time. My first guess they wouldn’t but I am going to play a solo game first with this. I want to see what effect the average dice will have on the game. After that we can play.

Here is a link to a solo test I started. I will place the methodology instructions there that I am using for the testing.

https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/41401/andrewaagamer-solo-test?_=1733436170864

@dawgoneit ok…I’ll start a game later today

OK, that’s fine with me. I’ll start a new OOB game in a second.

Moscow battle: -28.78 / -52 (this one doesn’t really matter but I’ll still include it)
Total: -142.09 / -85

Well that TUV Differential went down fast after the Belorussia battle lol.

@Tamer-of-Beasts

I think I send the latest version of WWI 1914 to someone else just before I made some updates, so if that works we can continue to play.

@VictoryFirst

Sure we can try it

@VictoryFirst

yes, same bid as last time

@VictoryFirst No worries. Yesterday was a holiday in the US so I did that have the time or enthusiasm to jump into another game immediately.

@VictoryFirst said in VF (Germany) vs. DoMan (Allies) | Original Europe, Game 1:

I didn’t know your exact strategy before this game, during the game I realized I could afford to build one more round of tanks without Berlin becoming in danger.

I think with the balance this strategy might have some more success, as long as you put a little more money into attacking Berlin as well.

TGC and I discussed this same potential weakness (Germany builds the extra round of Tanks because Berlin is not in danger) in the strategy last week when I initially rolled it out so I assumed he’d shared my concerns with you as well. I am going to spend some time thinking about ways to strike a better balance of force distribution and get back to you. I am not very good at making major innovations on the fly, unfortunately.

3d6: 2, 2, 4
1d6: 5

Sure thing. Thank you so much for playing by the way, out of everything the opponent is the most valuable when playing games 😀

@DoManMacgee @VictoryFirst I was about to advocate for dropping the pre-game 12 IPC for Germany, removing a single sub from the Bay of Biscay AND removing an infantry from Romania.

If this has the affect that I think it will, I will not recommend removing the infantry from Romania and instead recommend the removal of the pre-game 12 IPC and single submarine from Bay of Biscay.

So to elaborate on what I was calculating here:

“Net TUV swing” is the difference between the Average TUV swing and the Actual TUV swing of each battle. So, a completely average game should have this number as close to 0 as possible. It is more or less equivalent to the Net Pieces that TGC calculated but with the IPC-value of each piece factored in (so -1.00 Net Pieces could mean one 3-IPC infantry or one 15-IPC bomber lost, this would be respectively around -3.00 and -15.00 with Net TUV swing).
So, the battles in the Atlantic generally have more extreme numbers because the naval units are far more expensive than land units.

“Overall TUV swing throughout the entire game” is just a sum of the TUV swings of each battle. This number doesn’t really have an average but it should be compared to other games. It gives a sense for how many IPC worth of units the Germans killed versus how many they lost themselves, or in other words, how much they “gained”.

The names of the calculations might be a bit confusing though, I would rather see the second calculation be called “Net TUV swing”, the first one perhaps “TUV Swing Differential”?

@Ragnell804

Game History

Round: 5 Purchase Units - Americans Americans buy 3 artilleries, 1 fighter, 3 infantry and 1 transport; Remaining resources: 2 PUs; Combat Move - Americans 1 infantry moved from Morocco to Algeria Americans take Algeria from Germans 1 infantry moved from Vichy France to Northern Italy Americans take Northern Italy from Germans 2 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Eastern France 1 bomber moved from United Kingdom to Eastern France 1 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Eastern France 1 infantry moved from Netherlands-Belgium to Eastern France 1 artillery moved from Baltic Sea Sea Zone to Poland Americans take Poland from Germans 1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from United Kingdom to English Channel Sea Zone 1 artillery, 3 infantry and 2 transports moved from English Channel Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 1 artillery and 3 infantry moved from Danish Sea Sea Zone to Denmark Americans take Denmark from Germans Combat - Americans Battle in Eastern France Americans attack with 1 bomber and 4 infantry Germans defend with 1 infantry Americans roll dice for 1 bomber and 4 infantry in Eastern France, round 2 : 1/5 hits, 1.33 expected hits Germans roll dice for 1 infantry in Eastern France, round 2 : 1/1 hits, 0.33 expected hits 1 infantry owned by the Americans lost in Eastern France 1 infantry owned by the Germans lost in Eastern France Americans win, taking Eastern France from Germans with 1 bomber and 3 infantry remaining. Battle score for attacker is 0 Casualties for Americans: 1 infantry Casualties for Germans: 1 infantry Non Combat Move - Americans Trigger AlliedVictoryConditionsMet: Setting switch to true for conditionAttachmentAlliedVictorySwitch attached to Americans 1 bomber moved from Eastern France to Vichy France 1 submarine moved from Western Mediterranean Sea Zone to Central Mediterranean Sea Zone 3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from United States to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone 3 artilleries, 3 infantry and 3 transports moved from U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone to Celtic Sea Sea Zone 3 artilleries and 3 infantry moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to United Kingdom 1 transport moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to Danish Sea Sea Zone 1 transport moved from Celtic Sea Sea Zone to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone 1 transport moved from South Atlantic Sea Zone to U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone 1 fighter moved from United States to United Kingdom 2 destroyers moved from Western Mediterranean Sea Zone to Sicilian Sea Sea Zone 1 fighter moved from Leningrad to Moscow Place Units - Americans 3 artilleries, 1 fighter and 3 infantry placed in United States 1 transport placed in U.S. Eastern Coast Sea Zone Turn Complete - Americans Americans collect 52 PUs; end with 54 PUs

Combat Hit Differential Summary :

Americans regular : -0.33 Germans regular : 0.67

USA5.tsvg I had Berlin at 85% Allies at the top of the USA turn given middle of the road dice with the Brits. The Brits by themselves I had at 34%. Anyway, GG

@Ragnell804

Thanks for the game. Did you want to go again?